Why dont they play the score?

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
Since my eyes have gone south I been railing a lot. Ive noticed regular one pocket players with more than 10 years experience keep breaking one major rule.
And that is To Play the Score. Needing 1 ball and opponent needing 4 they will always shoot for their hole bringing down balls into the lower half court. It is just one thing that these avid one pocket players continue to commit to. It is akin to crack. This compelling one to live on the fast lane and try and hero their way into stardom only to die in a fiery crash. . Is it human nature? Or arent they playing for enough money?
Top shooters will shoot at times the wrong shot but they will shoot it good and people will emulate that.
They always have an excuse or blame the equipment when they lose. Never thinking about the odds on the shot or the rules as to why they were defeated.
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
1,894
I look at OP like, what was the movie, Bean Ball (baseball). Every move, every decision has an odds of success/failure. The better one is at calculating the odds (realistically) the more success comes your way. Think you are right, ego and heroism and maybe having too much money is what makes a "gopher". Our job is to give them the opportunity (low percentage opportunity, that is) for glory. ;)
 

Billy Jackets

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
1,650
Since my eyes have gone south I been railing a lot. Ive noticed regular one pocket players with more than 10 years experience keep breaking one major rule.
And that is To Play the Score. Needing 1 ball and opponent needing 4 they will always shoot for their hole bringing down balls into the lower half court. It is just one thing that these avid one pocket players continue to commit to. It is akin to crack. This compelling one to live on the fast lane and try and hero their way into stardom only to die in a fiery crash. . Is it human nature? Or arent they playing for enough money?
Top shooters will shoot at times the wrong shot but they will shoot it good and people will emulate that.
They always have an excuse or blame the equipment when they lose. Never thinking about the odds on the shot or the rules as to why they were defeated.
I once talked to a really great player about this, he said I can't let the table dictate to me what I play.
I am it's master!
I think you need to feel that way to be one of the best at anything, but then the scrubs think that's the way to play, and it is totally wrong for them.
I am about done trying to convince anyone, that sometimes it is better to play a good safe than make a ball, because frankly, I don't believe their brain can handle anything past, see ball, make ball.
So, anything I say is usually a waste of my time.
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
1,894
I once talked to a really great player about this, he said I can't let the table dictate to me what I play.
I am it's master!
I think you need to feel that way to be one of the best at anything, but then the scrubs think that's the way to play, and it is totally wrong for them.
I am about done trying to convince anyone, that sometimes it is better to play a good safe than make a ball, because frankly, I don't believe their brain can handle anything past, see ball, make ball.
So, anything I say is usually a waste of my time.
BJ,

I understand. Hence "shootin@urhole isOVERATED". This whole mantra "shoot at your hole" is akin to "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you"

Monkey see don't mean monkey can do.......

Too many players can't enjoy OP if they aren't playing four or five games/hour..............
 

beatle

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,674
shooting at your hole is not overrated except for those that cant make a ball in their hole.

every shot you shoot gives you a mathematical chance of it leading to winning the game. finding the best shot at each turn is the hard part. most times it is the more aggressive one that doesnt lead to a sellout.
 

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
In relation to the theme of the thread, if Im down 7 to 4, Im praying that you go for a difficult bank to your hole. Instead of getting rid of that lone ball downstairs. You make the ball you win the game but you miss and leave a cross bank which often happens I can make 2. The ball you bring down and the ball you left downstairs. Now we are playing 7 to 6 and Im still shooting.
If you shot the lone ball down in the lower half court away and stuck me to the bottom rail, with all balls out of play, I know Im in for a long nite.
I be thinking "this guy needs money real bad".
 

Tobermory

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
1,490
You gotta love the shooters who forget the score, or don't understand the value of their lead. The odds are already against you when you're way behind, so anything they do that gives you potential chances is fantastic. That said, if you're watching people killing time or playing for $5 a game, then best practices will go out the window. Are the objects of your observation playing for real money?
 

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
You gotta love the shooters who forget the score, or don't understand the value of their lead. The odds are already against you when you're way behind, so anything they do that gives you potential chances is fantastic. That said, if you're watching people killing time or playing for $5 a game, then best practices will go out the window. Are the objects of your observation playing for real money?
Yes and bragging rights too. Which sometimes is worth a hell of a lot.
 

Tobermory

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
1,490
I'd guess if the games mean something that the experienced players you are watching have made a calculation of some sort that the odds favor the shot attempt. Very hard to calculate, but we all do what we can. Personally, I like to shoot at my hole, but I rarely shoot a lower % shot unless I can cover myself nearly all of the times I shoot it. Possibly, the old style was more conservative than it needed to be.
 

Billy Jackets

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
1,650
The old style probably was a bit conservative, that tends to make the games seem closer and the better players could disguise their game easier. I think the equipment was also part of it, but I have said this before , and I say it again.
Not everybody is Tony Chohan, that guy sees the game in a perspective that almost nobody else can and then has the ability, and courage, to follow up with the shot, and hit it great.
I keep seeing guys try to emulate him, who used to be good players and they turn it into a battle of who will shoot the dumbest shot first.
They take themselves out of so many games with wowser shots.
There is a sweet spot in everyones arsenal and the sooner we figure out where it is, the better all around player, we will be.
Or play 5 dollar one pocket ,shoot those goofy shots and pretend you are a hustler, that seems to be the modern trend at everything, not just pool. I hope you know I did not direct the last part at you Toby , I have no knowledge of you and what you are like , it was a generalization of the mind set of too many people in pool rooms all over the country imo.
 
Last edited:

Jimmy B

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
5,389
I once talked to a really great player about this, he said I can't let the table dictate to me what I play.
I am it's master!
I think you need to feel that way to be one of the best at anything, but then the scrubs think that's the way to play, and it is totally wrong for them.
I am about done trying to convince anyone, that sometimes it is better to play a good safe than make a ball, because frankly, I don't believe their brain can handle anything past, see ball, make ball.
So, anything I say is usually a waste of my time.



You give a lot of sound direction and tell some interesting trivia from the past. Also you can take a punch and some of us appreciate you and make sure to read all of your posts. ty.......
 

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
"There is a sweet spot in everyones arsenal and the sooner we figure out where it is, the better all around player, we will be."-Billy Jackets
I love this statement. I think that is the struggle between what we know is possible and what we are capable of. And then father time gets into the equation. Im sure what was Efrens "sweet spot" once is different now and he has to adjust and re-find where his present one is.

"Possibly, the old style was more conservative than it needed to be."-Tobermory
I think in the past it was mostly older guys playing the game. In that era most was playing 14.1 which is not a great gambling trap game.
You run a 150 and out and that was it. But one pocket needed a certain type of wisdom and stamina that appealed to senior players. Guys like Hubert Cokes might not have the energy and stamina to stand for 2 hours running balls but they could swim freely and hide their talents in one hole. So I dont think it is the old style but a style that is more adaptable by more older players. And as we get older we get more conservative with our gamesmanship. I dont drive as fast as I used to. I dont drive at night because of failing vision. I dont try to make that yellow light. In other words Im more conservative in my driving. But is it an "old style" or just adapting to my present status?
Younger men like RA (when he was in his prime), Alex, Chohan, etc changed the game but those of us who dont have the skills and time is catching up on us have to adjust to a certain type of game. This is what I think is important. Not that youre playing an "old style" but playing what you are capable of.
The mind is the great equalizer.
 

jrhendy

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,777
I have mentioned this before, but while watching Busty play another top player at The West Coast Swing at CA Billiards a couple years ago, it was Hill/Hill and Busty got a little out of shape and tried a tough shot on his last ball, missed and broke up the balls and lost the set.

I asked T-Rex why Francisco did not play the score and he told me at this level, if you have a chance to close it out you better take it and if you don’t, they will find a way to beat you.
 

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
I have mentioned this before, but while watching Busty play another top player at The West Coast Swing at CA Billiards a couple years ago, it was Hill/Hill and Busty got a little out of shape and tried a tough shot on his last ball, missed and broke up the balls and lost the set.

I asked T-Rex why Francisco did not play the score and he told me at this level, if you have a chance to close it out you better take it and if you don’t, they will find a way to beat you.
Yes but we are playing Henry the ATM Machine and Two Thumbs Tommy most of the time and not some high echelon pro.
 

jrhendy

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,777
Yes but we are playing Henry the ATM Machine and Two Thumbs Tommy most of the time and not some high echelon pro.
I agree at our level you have to play score. I try to adhere to the old rule from Freddie The Beard to not shoot a shot you will lose the game on if you miss.
 

Billy Jackets

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
1,650
I agree at our level you have to play score. I try to adhere to the old rule from Freddie The Beard to not shoot a shot you will lose the game on if you miss.
I know you know the other part but just forgot to say it , Don't shoot a shot you can lose with , but can't win with .
 

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
9,237
This is the way Efren Reyes seemed to always play One Pocket -- never letting up on the offense even if he had a big lead in the ball count. However, the first time I ever saw him lose a match at Derby City (after about 5 titles without a loss), he lost a game and match to Gabe Owen exactly because of that -- failing to play the score and shooting too aggressively for his pocket with a big lead. Sure enough Gabe found a way to get balls by his own hole and ultimately steal a game that Efren should have won. That was the the first year that Efren came to DCC and somebody else won the One Pocket -- Gabe Owen!!
 

keoneyo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
This is the way Efren Reyes seemed to always play One Pocket -- never letting up on the offense even if he had a big lead in the ball count. However, the first time I ever saw him lose a match at Derby City (after about 5 titles without a loss), he lost a game and match to Gabe Owen exactly because of that -- failing to play the score and shooting too aggressively for his pocket with a big lead. Sure enough Gabe found a way to get balls by his own hole and ultimately steal a game that Efren should have won. That was the the first year that Efren came to DCC and somebody else won the One Pocket -- Gabe Owen!!
I was there. I wanted to tell Efren "youre shooting the wrong shot". And he did and lost a simple match to Gabe Owen. I swear I thought the dump was in. It was so unbelievable.
 

Masta Cruz

Active Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
35
I asked T-Rex why Francisco did not play the score and he told me at this level, if you have a chance to close it out you better take it and if you don’t, they will find a way to beat you.
I heartbreakingly experienced someone finding a way to beat me when I had a chance to close it out, just a few weeks ago at Derby betting my last 300$ in a late night race to four against a tough player.

I was down the whole set and managed to reach case game. Finally felt good and dominated the early innings and had a multiple ball run to get up 7 to -2.
Deciding I had it in the bag don’t do anything stupid, I passed up a long straight back that I was about 30% chance to make in my mind, and played safe.
But the balls were all in play and my series of safes to follow weren’t quite good enough, he imaginatively put me under pressure with each return, eventually running six balls. In the innings to follow I never got another good shot to my hole and lost the entire set. I have nightmares about passing up that straight back ever since.

in the future for better or for worse I probably won’t play the score if any similar situation comes up again where I can swing at the whole set with a shot.
 

beatle

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,674
learn your approximate probabilities for making your shots. then you can make an informed decision on what hot to shoot.
as you found out being too conservative is worse than shooting a bad shot that may win the game.
 
Top