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Miller 11-03-2018 12:47 AM

The simple simple truth
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Four point plan from the school of Crabb Man and Miller…..

Here’s the simple truth:

(1) Tourneys need to either (A) start a day earlier -or- (B) start early the first day

(2) You have to play 2 rounds on both the loser and winner side the first day (for a 2 day regional event, you have to play 3 on the loser side)

(3) Loser side matches need to be races to 2 (unless you start a day early – see point #1 above)

(4) Matches that go over “x” amount of time need a mechanism to speed them up….shot clock, proceeding racks to 6 balls, or grady rule…..pick one

(I told myself I wasn’t going to weigh in on this anymore, and here I just did…..:frus)

Attachment 23618

You're welcome

crabbcatjohn 11-03-2018 02:01 AM

2019 members tournament and Memphis plan results
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When me and Miller designed this tournament we had 3 goals in mind. one was to make darn sure who was qualified to play...The second was to show the other members of this forum that you could actually have a tournament that ran like clock work and ended at a resonable time each day. Mike was in the losers bracket to begin the last day, started at noon and finished by 8:30. The last day didn't run 17 hours as did every one tournament and seniors tournament to date. The other goal was to have an actual schedule of matches and races that realistically mirriored how long matches would take and a firm backup plan in case matches were running long. We told you guys that we were going to PROVE to you this would work and we
And guess what we got.. crickets and watched a seniors tournament that couldn't even finish after 17 hours of play on the last day. According to Kentucky, nobody complained and it went great and as Except your lucky you didn't kill poor Dr.

So at this point we have the annual members tournament coming up. Nobody can decide where its going to be, we barely got the dates scheduled, i doubt we are going to know in writing who is actually qualified to play again, no firm or even tested plan for long matches and the usual scheduling mess that again won't work by simply adding 1 match on Friday.

We have a tested plan here that works. It was inexpensive for most of the players and time convienent to more players who can't take a entire week off. Players weren't turned off by the format as we filled the limited16 entries in 24 hours. We started at noon and got done at 10 and 8:30 each night and we ran a 23 man open banks on Friday... It also left time for socializing and matching up. It could be easilly formatted to fit the exact same schedule weve been using for the yearly members while eliminating the Sunday marathon debacles. The other thing people aren't understanding is the race to two on the losers side levels out the playing field for the weaker players and gives them a chance against the stronger players. To me thats important.
What i see happening is everybody that didn't play or have no clue how to run tournaments are looking at other untested options and nobody is even considering using this simple, tested plan that works well for our upcoming members tournament.

Dennis "Whitey" Young 11-03-2018 06:14 AM

Thanks Miller and Crabbcatjohn! As you know I started a thread to develop a consensus on a few format suggestions for next year's Senior event. So far there have been some fact finding and a few suggestions, and at this point it is hard to tell if the thread will take off with good participation.

I also knew by some of your guys comments on threads about the 3/3 format, that it just would not work in time allotted, that you guys have experience and could work the math.

I have a few questions; How many tables did you play on? What was your start time each day? How long on avg. does a race to 3 take? How long on avg. does a race to 2 take? Was there a need to go to an alternative back up plan if a match took to long? And how much time was slotted for each match for your bracket to stay on schedule?

I agree with your premise that 3/3 does not work since it has been proven year after year. The key is how do you make it work since there seems to be no budge on the 3/3 format! I agree with going to 2 on the one loss side, in that it gives the weaker player a better chance to win.

When I was doing the RR thread, it seemed that a single elimination on the final day coincided well with RR for the MOT. Steve made some very good points for having a Sunday single elimination, and one being it may give the weaker player a chance for an upset. No discussion as of yet on this for the Senior event.

It would be greatly appreciated if you guys decided to participate in my Unifying Format thread. For me, the mere fact that there is no set number of max players is a puzzler for developing a format. Your experience input would be very valuable!

thanks for deciding to do your thread! Whitey

crabbcatjohn 11-03-2018 11:42 AM

I must have missed it Whitey. Who said their is no budge on the 3/3 format? As far as I know we still vote on serious tournament issues for our members tournament here.
Actually there are quite a few people who are starting to realize that the current 3/3 format doesnt work. As I said. Me, Miller and John even created a tournament to show the 3/2 works. I think the main push back so far is our inclusion of the Grady rule..See our Mele in Memphis thread for more details.

I'm not speaking for the seniors tournament, it will never work with 3/3 in the venue they have unless they start on Thursday morning and that still might not be early If they get another 8 players next year they will have to start on

cincy_kid 11-03-2018 11:53 AM

For what its worth, I would vote for anything that would make sure we finish the tourneys at a reasonable hour.

I would favor shortening to 3/2, round robin format, and/or implementing some sort of shot clock or time limitation before I would only going to 6 balls, Grady rule or any other aspect that would change the actual game itself. (just my opinion)

Besides, the only downside to doing so would be you may play less games or get knocked out earlier right? If that happens, then we just match up, or hang out or do whatever we want. I don't see a downside really.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. But we have to be able to get a 32 man one hole tourney completed using whatever time Friday night, after the calcutta, all day and night Saturday and then finishing by I would say 6PM at the latest but I guess 8PM may be ok too!

The cool part is, I know we will figure it out, looking forward to getting there!

crabbcatjohn 11-03-2018 12:18 PM

One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even

cincy_kid 11-03-2018 12:20 PM


Originally Posted by crabbcatjohn (Post 246615)
One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even

True, but they could all be races to 2 which would help some.

jtompilot 11-03-2018 12:38 PM

I don’t see the super slow players in that lineup. That makes a huge difference in having to wait for a slow match or two to finish before the bracket can move on.
In my mind I don’t see how you can compare how smoothly and timely Memphis tournament ran compared to the others.

NH Steve 11-03-2018 12:59 PM

For most of the matches, a race to 3 works fine. It seems to me that there are only a handful that run overly long -- definitely a little more so for the seniors, but they are already starting early enough Friday. They just did not play off any one-loss rounds Friday, and that caused a two round back up that very first day that they could not recover from given the slowish play of the senior players.

We made that mistake with the member tournament also. As long as we set goals for how far each day is going to progress in the tournament, and then we stick to it, we should finish overall in a reasonable time. So far we have not -- mainly due to the learning curve, but also bucking to host room pressure not to eliminate any players the first day, and maybe also some player pressure not to have to play one more round on either Friday or Sat night or too early in the AM when players already consider themselves exhausted or unprepared in the AM.

Personally I would rather get bumped the first day, or have to play later at night (or earlier in the morning) than go to a race to 2.

That's my opinion.

crabbcatjohn 11-03-2018 01:03 PM


Originally Posted by jtompilot (Post 246622)
I don’t see the super slow players in that lineup. That makes a huge difference in having to wait for a slow match or two to finish before the bracket can move on.
In my mind I don’t see how you can compare how smoothly and timely Memphis tournament ran compared to the others.

We did have a few slow players and matches that would have otherwise went way long. As the majority of matches are played on the loser side , the question is if there were even more slow players how could going to 2 not help? For instance, we had a match on the loser side that was 1-1 at the 2 hour mark. Going to 2 was a huge time saver in that match.

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