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jokerley 07-17-2019 01:43 PM

all ball foul pros and cons
 
Around Memphis the all ball foul rule is showing up with mixed success in one pocket matches. I would say 50/50. I happen to play it a lot ( my opponent's choice) and found one plus ....you might turn down some cue ball in the stack shots which helps on the defense side of things . A minus ...the bridge getting adjusted pre shot can be a challenge . Would like to hear other comments for or against . Cant wait to see you guys in October !

BRLongArm 07-17-2019 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerley (Post 260981)
Around Memphis the all ball foul rule is showing up with mixed success in one pocket matches. I would say 50/50. I happen to play it a lot ( my opponent's choice) and found one plus ....you might turn down some cue ball in the stack shots which helps on the defense side of things . A minus ...the bridge getting adjusted pre shot can be a challenge . Would like to hear other comments for or against . Cant wait to see you guys in October !

Every rule in a gambling match should be to limit arguments and disputes. We went to rack your own to eliminate arguments over the rack. We went to re rack on a made ball to eliminate arguments about rack mechanics. We went to cue foul only to eliminate arguments over any ball fouls. We went to no sleepers to eliminate that argument. Any rule that brings arguments back into the match I'm against.

Usually, there is no referee. Can you imagine your opponent sweating you every time you are close to the stack or a ball? That does not make for a comfortable match.

In short, for those reasons, I'm against any ball fouls.

NH Steve 07-17-2019 05:07 PM

I've been proposing "All ball fouls with a one touch warning" instead of all ball fouls. I've just seen too many invisible fouls called by an opponent overlay anxious to get back to the table. Fine, all ball fouls if you have a neutral referee, but the whole reason they adopted cue ball fouls only is for non-referee situations, which is by far most of the time.

The way I describe "All ball fouls with a one touch warning" is that if you touch an object ball in the act of setting up or warming up (prior to the delivery of your stroke) then your opponent can warn you -- and they can call somebody over to watch if necessary. A subsequent clear object ball touch is a foul. If it might have been a foul or might not, the opponent is going to have to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt unless someone was brought over to watch. In any case, it is always a foul to disturb an object ball if it happens in the act of shooting (and it's too late to stop for the warning). Obviously cue ball fouls are always fouls too.

Giving the close calls to the shooter forces the opponent to call someone over to watch if they think it is going to be close -- because a neutral observer can simply call what they see, whether it is a very light touch foul or an obvious foul. Players are used to being asked things like "can you watch this hit?", so it shouldn't be that big a deal enlisting someone to watch (when you are dealing with two players who do not trust each other lol).

I think this could be a good compromise between cue ball fouls only, and all ball fouls -- without a ref.

LSJohn 07-17-2019 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH Steve (Post 260995)
I've been proposing "All ball fouls with a one touch warning" instead of all ball fouls. I've just seen too many invisible fouls called by an opponent overlay anxious to get back to the table. Fine, all ball fouls if you have a neutral referee, but the whole reason they adopted cue ball fouls only is for non-referee situations, which is by far most of the time.

The way I describe "All ball fouls with a one touch warning" is that if you touch an object ball in the act of setting up or warming up (prior to the delivery of your stroke) then your opponent can warn you -- and they can call somebody over to watch if necessary. A subsequent clear object ball touch is a foul. If it might have been a foul or might not, the opponent is going to have to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt unless someone was brought over to watch. In any case, it is always a foul to disturb an object ball if it happens in the act of shooting (and it's too late to stop for the warning). Obviously cue ball fouls are always fouls too.



Giving the close calls to the shooter forces the opponent to call someone over to watch if they think it is going to be close -- because a neutral observer can simply call what they see, whether it is a very light touch foul or an obvious foul. Players are used to being asked things like "can you watch this hit?", so it shouldn't be that big a deal enlisting someone to watch (when you are dealing with two players who do not trust each other lol).

I think this could be a good compromise between cue ball fouls only, and all ball fouls -- without a ref.

As you know, I don't play for large stakes, but whether gambling or in tournament play I don't recall any problem worth worrying about playing CB fouls only.

I'm always for making things better if possible, but for me this is one of those "If it ain't broke don't try to fix it" issues. :)

darmoose 07-17-2019 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRLongArm (Post 260988)
Every rule in a gambling match should be to limit arguments and disputes. We went to rack your own to eliminate arguments over the rack. We went to re rack on a made ball to eliminate arguments about rack mechanics. We went to cue foul only to eliminate arguments over any ball fouls. We went to no sleepers to eliminate that argument. Any rule that brings arguments back into the match I'm against.

Usually, there is no referee. Can you imagine your opponent sweating you every time you are close to the stack or a ball? That does not make for a comfortable match.

In short, for those reasons, I'm against any ball fouls.

I totally agree with this. Everybody that I know and play with plays this way. Most all the time, about 99% or so, any minor foul committed is inconsequential and has no bearing on any shot, and certainly is not intentional. Rules (official ) need to be written to be administered by the players themselves without ambiguity, and without exceptions if at all possible.

:)

Billy Jackets 07-17-2019 10:27 PM

We don't need no stinkin rules , it should be ok for some slob to move the balls every time he gets down to shoot.
If they seem to always favor him, well, he's too stupid to be doing it on purpose, right?
I understand if you are playing race to 5 for 2 dollars, have a goof, but if you are in a tough game , for important money, it only takes a couple of bumps at the right times and you become a huge underdog.
If you are one of the 3 people left in the world who will gamble in an even game , would you let somebody that was equally as good as you , move the balls 3 times in a session , when he wanted to ? an inch?
Of course you wouldn't , or you would drown.
I'm going to make it so even a potato can understand.
You and Fred play dead even, over the last year there are 2 games difference and you have played 3000 games.
You play Fred 12 games one day for 1 thousand a game, he wins 5 you win 7 . You win 2000.00 wheeee!
If you let Fred make 3 moves during the day , you could lose all 3 games , {and probably will} remember, this is a tough game.
Now instead of Fred wins 5, Fred wins 8 , instead of you win 7 ,you win 4 . Fred just beat you out of 4 grand . Plus the 2 grand you should have won.
If you don't understand how powerful this is , I suggest you stick to playing for lunch at Mc Donalds.
Just because you don't understand , doesn't mean it isn't happening.
The only thing that saves most people is they are already broke before someone with a brain can get next to them.
Or they won't bet more than 10 dollars, that there are fish in the ocean.

"You play cards like my brothers kids" Billy Bob Thornton in Tombstone.

BRLongArm 07-17-2019 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Jackets (Post 261006)
We don't need no stinkin rules , it should be ok for some slob to move the balls every time he gets down to shoot.
If they seem to always favor him, well, he's too stupid to be doing it on purpose, right?
I understand if you are playing race to 5 for 2 dollars, have a goof, but if you are in a tough game , for important money, it only takes a couple of bumps at the right times and you become a huge underdog.
If you are one of the 3 people left in the world who will gamble in an even game , would you let somebody that was equally as good as you , move the balls 3 times in a session , when he wanted to ? an inch?
Of course you wouldn't , or you would drown.
I'm going to make it so even a potato can understand.
You and Fred play dead even, over the last year there are 2 games difference and you have played 3000 games.
You play Fred 12 games one day for 1 thousand a game, he wins 5 you win 7 . You win 2000.00 wheeee!
If you let Fred make 3 moves during the day , you could lose all 3 games , {and probably will} remember, this is a tough game.
Now instead of Fred wins 5, Fred wins 8 , instead of you win 7 ,you win 4 . Fred just beat you out of 4 grand . Plus the 2 grand you should have won.
If you don't understand how powerful this is , I suggest you stick to playing for lunch at Mc Donalds.
Just because you don't understand , doesn't mean it isn't happening.
The only thing that saves most people is they are already broke before someone with a brain can get next to them.
Or they won't bet more than 10 dollars, that there are fish in the ocean.

"You play cards like my brothers kids" Billy Bob Thornton in Tombstone.

I get your point. But you get to move it back where you think it was, or you get to leave it there. You have the advantage with that rule. He doesn't get to move it where he wants. It is frustrating when guys lay on balls to make shots they otherwise couldn't reach, or try a dicey shot over the stack. But we have rules for that. Move one ball, I get to tell you where the ball was, or I can leave it where it rests. So either it goes back to where it was, or you have moved it to a worse position for you and I leave it there. If you move two balls, it's a foul and you owe a ball. Either way, you should not be getting a benefit from moving a ball. It's really just enforcing the existing rules. I also get that players have varying levels of etiquette in this country. I make it a point not to play guys who are shooting angles at me all the time. It's just not worth the stress.

Frank Almanza 07-18-2019 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRLongArm (Post 261009)
I get your point. But you get to move it back where you think it was, or you get to leave it there. You have the advantage with that rule. He doesn't get to move it where he wants. It is frustrating when guys lay on balls to make shots they otherwise couldn't reach, or try a dicey shot over the stack. But we have rules for that. Move one ball, I get to tell you where the ball was, or I can leave it where it rests. So either it goes back to where it was, or you have moved it to a worse position for you and I leave it there. If you move two balls, it's a foul and you owe a ball. Either way, you should not be getting a benefit from moving a ball. It's really just enforcing the existing rules. I also get that players have varying levels of etiquette in this country. I make it a point not to play guys who are shooting angles at me all the time. It's just not worth the stress.

You make some good points to show that moving balls doesn't usually favor the one that did the moving.

He will normally come out on the short end for moving balls. I'll put them back where I think they were if I believe it was not intentional. If it continues, then it's time to pull out. Who knows what's coming next.

Mkbtank 07-18-2019 08:46 AM

all ball foul pros and cons
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Jackets (Post 261006)



"You play cards like my brothers kids" Billy Bob Thornton in Tombstone.


“Just wanted to tell ya you’re sitting in my chair”...


As to the post, Joe nails it imo. (Because the other player has the option to move it back. Or worse heh)

youngstownkid 07-18-2019 11:40 AM

all ball foul pros and cons
 
All ball fouls. Anything else dampens the effects of a tough position.


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