Action in reno

jrhendy

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I am at the Bar Table Championships at the Grand Sierra Hotel (Formerly The Hilton) in Reno Nevada. While the small table tournaments are going on there is also a "Pay as you play" one pocket tournament on ten Diamond big tables.

I spent yesterday at the race book with Ronny Allen and Mark Haddad feeding the horses. It wasn't a total disaster and last night I matched up with Scott Frost playing a little one pocket. Scott gave me a huge spot (10/5) and on paper it sounds like a good game. We raced to five and I won the first two games, feeling very comfortable. I was playing better than I did at the DCC, pocketing balls and moving well.

Then the botton fell out. Scott, adjusting to the table, turned everything around and won five in a row. Now, we all know he is going to run balls, and I did have to fade a couple runs of 9, but he had me ducking for my life on almost every shot after he settled down. He cuts down any angles to balls on my side and in play and almost never misses a shot that will go directly in his hole. He had me ducking and taking scratches just to stay alive a while longer.

I might have a chance getting the break too, but he gets out of the break and turns it around like the champion he is.

Tournament 9 ball today and the Pay As You Play one pocket tournament tonight and hopefully a little easier action than messing with champions.
 

wincardona

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Dallas Tx.
I am at the Bar Table Championships at the Grand Sierra Hotel (Formerly The Hilton) in Reno Nevada. While the small table tournaments are going on there is also a "Pay as you play" one pocket tournament on ten Diamond big tables.

I spent yesterday at the race book with Ronny Allen and Mark Haddad feeding the horses. It wasn't a total disaster and last night I matched up with Scott Frost playing a little one pocket. Scott gave me a huge spot (10/5) and on paper it sounds like a good game. We raced to five and I won the first two games, feeling very comfortable. I was playing better than I did at the DCC, pocketing balls and moving well.

Then the botton fell out. Scott, adjusting to the table, turned everything around and won five in a row. Now, we all know he is going to run balls, and I did have to fade a couple runs of 9, but he had me ducking for my life on almost every shot after he settled down. He cuts down any angles to balls on my side and in play and almost never misses a shot that will go directly in his hole. He had me ducking and taking scratches just to stay alive a while longer.

I might have a chance getting the break too, but he gets out of the break and turns it around like the champion he is.

Tournament 9 ball today and the Pay As You Play one pocket tournament tonight and hopefully a little easier action than messing with champions.

John, I know exactly what you mean, and how you felt while playing Frost.:help The good part of playing Frost is that it builds confidence in your game, after playing Frost you shouldn't be concerned with playing any other player because you've been in against the best.;)

Dr. Bill
 

#Cruncher

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Question for the seasoned veterans. If I felt like I played a little under Hendy, which game would I have a better chance against Scott with... 15-5 or 10-4? I know I would probably get beat with either one, but I'd have to pay and see :)
 

Guest

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Question for the seasoned veterans. If I felt like I played a little under Hendy, which game would I have a better chance against Scott with... 15-5 or 10-4? I know I would probably get beat with either one, but I'd have to pay and see :)

#Cruncher, your question was addressed to seasoned veterans. I am not a seasoned veteran player, but I would like to say that I like your spirit. Go ahead and play. That's what it's all about.

Good Luck, #Cruncher,
Clare
 

lll

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vero beach fl
#Cruncher, your question was addressed to seasoned veterans. I am not a seasoned veteran player, but I would like to say that I like your spirit. Go ahead and play. That's what it's all about.

Good Luck, #Cruncher,
Clare

i think many would say 10-4
because you have to play 25% better to get to 5
but to me running 15 and out is more than 33% harder(for frost) than running 10
so i would take 15 -5
ok im curious to hear what the real gamblers say
please discuss this from the better and weaker players perspective
thanks:)
oph id be interested in your comments too as long as you dont insult me for wanting 15-5:D
 
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hitnandpikn

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I like the 10-4 spot. My chances of getting to four on a mistake or miss, or maybe my own move or shot, are much better than five. Once the table is under the control of the superior player pocketing any balls becomes very tough. The top players run balls so well that them getting to 10 or 15 isn't in question, the lesser players ability to get to 4 or 5 is and you are only going to get one maybe two chances to make your move. I would rather only need four in that situation.
 

onepockethacker

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i think many would say 10-4
because you have to play 25% better to get to 5
but to me running 15 and out is more than 33% harder(for frost) than running 10
so i would take 15 -5
ok im curious to hear what the real gamblers say
please discuss this from the better and weaker players perspective
thanks:)
oph id be interested in your comments too as long as you dont insult me for wanting 15-5:D

Thats a tough call. It depends on how im playing. If im running alot of balls( which i do when im playing everyday) i would like to give up 15 to 5. If i havent been playing i would rather give up the 10 to 4. This is another scenario where other players might want to do the opposite. To each his own. About a little over a year ago i was playing everyday and i played one the guys down here and i gave him 13 to 4. 8 games in a row i ran at least 12 balls. At that time i would of loved giving him 15 to 5. Right now i have played 1 day since Derby city so i know im not going to run alot of balls so i would rather give him 10 to 4. Thats just my feelings everyone may not agree but thats fine
 

wincardona

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Thats a tough call. It depends on how im playing. If im running alot of balls( which i do when im playing everyday) i would like to give up 15 to 5. If i havent been playing i would rather give up the 10 to 4. This is another scenario where other players might want to do the opposite. To each his own. About a little over a year ago i was playing everyday and i played one the guys down here and i gave him 13 to 4. 8 games in a row i ran at least 12 balls. At that time i would of loved giving him 15 to 5. Right now i have played 1 day since Derby city so i know im not going to run alot of balls so i would rather give him 10 to 4. Thats just my feelings everyone may not agree but thats fine
It sounds to me that you're actually saying that 15 to 5 is more of a spot than 10 to 4, which I agree, but you didn't say it. You said that if you were running a lot of balls you would love to give up 15 to 5, did you mean that you would ...rather...give up 15 to 5 as opposed to 10 to 4? Looking at it in terms of the math in proportion of the spot, playing a player 10 to 4 is a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio in balls needed for the better player, but when you jump from 10 to 4 to 15 to 5 the ball ratio for the difference of the spot is at a 5 to 1 ratio. Meaning that you must make 5 extra balls to force your opponent to go up 1 extra ball.:eek: Seems a little too much providing that the 10 to 4 game is a tight fit. I kinda understand that to get your opponent to go up an extra ball (stretching the game) that extra ball would be harder for him to get than the balls that preceded that because of the options that would be available, but the same for you even though the better player should be better equipped to deal with the adjustment but at doubling the ratio of the balls needed:confused: I don't think so.

8 games in a row you ran 12 balls. 8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.

My bad...at least 12 balls.

Dr. Bill
 
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onepockethacker

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It sounds to me that you're actually saying that 15 to 5 is more of a spot than 10 to 4, which I agree, but you didn't say it. You said that if you were running a lot of balls you would love to give up 15 to 5, did you mean that you would ...rather...give up 15 to 5 as opposed to 10 to 4? Looking at it in terms of the math in proportion of the spot, playing a player 10 to 4 is a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio in balls needed for the better player, but when you jump from 10 to 4 to 15 to 5 the ball ratio for the difference of the spot is at a 5 to 1 ratio. Meaning that you must make 5 extra balls to force your opponent to go up 1 extra ball.:eek: Seems a little too much providing that the 10 to 4 game is a tight fit. I kinda understand that to get your opponent to go up an extra ball (stretching the game) that extra ball would be harder for him to get than the balls that preceded that because of the options that would be available, but the same for you even though the better player should be better equipped to deal with the adjustment but at doubling the ratio of the balls needed:confused: I don't think so.

8 games in a row you ran 12 balls. 8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.

My bad...at least 12 balls.

Dr. Bill

You repeated the 8 games in a row i ran at least 12 3 times. Are you doubting the validity of that statement? Perhaps a wager is in the air? ( to this day if you ask the guy i played who he thinks the best one pocket player in the world is..he says its me LMFAO He tells EVERYONE he never seen anyone do what i did that night and he has all the accustat tapes and goes to all the tournaments. As for the spots different strokes for different folks. In either way if IM giving a player 10 to 4 or 15 to 5 they are borderline high functioning retard lol that extra ball is huge in actual game play. Like i said me personally if im playing everyday and running alot of balls i dont mind the 15 to 5 or the 10 to 4. It has to do with how im playing and also the opponents style might play a factor. Whether they fire at every shot or attempt to actually move( even if its going to be bad moving)
 

lll

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vero beach fl
i think many would say 10-4
because you have to play 25% better to get to 5
but to me running 15 and out is more than 33% harder(for frost) than running 10
so i would take 15 -5
ok im curious to hear what the real gamblers say
please discuss this from the better and weaker players perspective
thanks:)

It sounds to me that you're actually saying that 15 to 5 is more of a spot than 10 to 4, which I agree, but you didn't say it. You said that if you were running a lot of balls you would love to give up 15 to 5, did you mean that you would ...rather...give up 15 to 5 as opposed to 10 to 4? Looking at it in terms of the math in proportion of the spot, playing a player 10 to 4 is a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio in balls needed for the better player, but when you jump from 10 to 4 to 15 to 5 the ball ratio for the difference of the spot is at a 5 to 1 ratio. Meaning that you must make 5 extra balls to force your opponent to go up 1 extra ball.:eek: Seems a little too much providing that the 10 to 4 game is a tight fit. I kinda understand that to get your opponent to go up an extra ball (stretching the game) that extra ball would be harder for him to get than the balls that preceded that because of the options that would be available, but the same for you even though the better player should be better equipped to deal with the adjustment but at doubling the ratio of the balls needed:confused: I don't think so.

8 games in a row you ran 12 balls. 8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.8 games in a row you ran 12 balls.

My bad...at least 12 balls.

Dr. Bill

billy the 2 1/2:1 ratio for 10-4 i understand
but 15 -5 is 3:1 if we compare apples to apples yes??
instead of looking at it as 5:1 in ball count
another angle would be the extra 5 balls for the better player
= 50% increase in balls to make
the 1 ball for the weaker player is 25% increase

therefore the 15-5 spot should be tougher and less preferred for the better player than 10-4
yes??
anyone can answer
 

lll

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vero beach fl
i know we had this debate along time ago
but ill restate something ive said before
rather than call the weaker player borderline retarded which is uncalled for(are you listening oph)
the less skilled player (sounds much better cock a doodle doo....)
struggles more to get that 1 ball than the better player getting 5
so i could see how the percentages may not always give the answer
 

Cary

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Bertram, Texas
billy the 2 1/2:1 ratio for 10-4 i understand
but 15 -5 is 3:1 if we compare apples to apples yes??
instead of looking at it as 5:1 in ball count
another angle would be the extra 5 balls for the better player
= 50% increase in balls to make
the 1 ball for the weaker player is 25% increase

therefore the 15-5 spot should be tougher and less preferred for the better player than 10-4
yes??
anyone can answer

Without a doubt.
 

onepockethacker

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Jan 31, 2012
Messages
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i know we had this debate along time ago
but ill restate something ive said before
rather than call the weaker player borderline retarded which is uncalled for(are you listening oph)
the less skilled player (sounds much better cock a doodle doo....)
struggles more to get that 1 ball than the better player getting 5
so i could see how the percentages may not always give the answer

How many people on this site give up these kind of spots on a regular basis? I do. Its not theory or hypotheticals or percentages. Alot goes into the decision its not always cut and dry. Is the person im playing going to shoot at everything or is he going to move. Am i running alot of balls or am i playing bad. If im out of stroke and im running 4's and 5's when i should be running 8's and up i would rather give up 10 to 4. If im in dead stroke running alot of balls i would rather give up 15 to 5. Lets say i get the first turn to score and i run 4, now im either playing the guy 6 to 4 or 11 to 5 the rest of the game. I would rather it be 6 to 4 at that point. If i run 8 i am playing him 2 to 4 or 7 to 5. Either way i love the game at that point but its a huge difference for the weaker player to try and run 4 than 5. Plus some of your shot selections might change when the weaker player is going to than 5. In other words if the weaker player is going to 4 i might play safe instead of going for a tough shot where if i make it i will get a big run. Where as if he is going to 5 i might go for the shot because i need more balls but so does he. The only people that can answer this question are people that actually give up that kind of weight. Thats like you asking how should you pace yourself when running a marathon. Obviously i havent done it and dont have an experienced opinion on the matter. Like i said different strokes for different folks.
 

wincardona

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You repeated the 8 games in a row i ran at least 12 3 times. Are you doubting the validity of that statement? Perhaps a wager is in the air? ( to this day if you ask the guy i played who he thinks the best one pocket player in the world is..he says its me LMFAO He tells EVERYONE he never seen anyone do what i did that night and he has all the accustat tapes and goes to all the tournaments. As for the spots different strokes for different folks. In either way if IM giving a player 10 to 4 or 15 to 5 they are borderline high functioning retard lol that extra ball is huge in actual game play. Like i said me personally if im playing everyday and running alot of balls i dont mind the 15 to 5 or the 10 to 4. It has to do with how im playing and also the opponents style might play a factor. Whether they fire at every shot or attempt to actually move( even if its going to be bad moving)
You're misunderstanding my acknowledgement of the 12 ball runs, why would I not believe you? I have stated that I think you're a strong player and I also believe your capable of running all those balls, my reference of the feat was to make you totally aware that your game is far superior to mine, and you're only spotting me 10 to 8. Now the game I asked you for is probably not the right game for us, but i'm a man of my word so i'll still play it.:D

Dr. Bill
 

onepockethacker

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Messages
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You're misunderstanding my acknowledgement of the 12 ball runs, why would I not believe you? I have stated that I think you're a strong player and I also believe your capable of running all those balls, my reference of the feat was to make you totally aware that your game is far superior to mine, and you're only spotting me 10 to 8. Now the game I asked you for is probably not the right game for us, but i'm a man of my word so i'll still play it.:D

Dr. Bill

LOL nice try but the guy i played was scared shitless of me and we were playing on an easy table. I put the balls every game where i knew i was going to run a bunch however i didnt think i was going to run that many!! i was in a trance that night definitely the most balls i have ever run. You would have run at least 10's in the same spot maybe as much as me.
P.S. Billy I is always working it lol you dont miss an opportunity. How the hell did i ever escape your grasp. PHEW
 
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lll

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vero beach fl
How many people on this site give up these kind of spots on a regular basis? I do. Its not theory or hypotheticals or percentages. Alot goes into the decision its not always cut and dry. Is the person im playing going to shoot at everything or is he going to move. Am i running alot of balls or am i playing bad. If im out of stroke and im running 4's and 5's when i should be running 8's and up i would rather give up 10 to 4. If im in dead stroke running alot of balls i would rather give up 15 to 5. Lets say i get the first turn to score and i run 4, now im either playing the guy 6 to 4 or 11 to 5 the rest of the game. I would rather it be 6 to 4 at that point. If i run 8 i am playing him 2 to 4 or 7 to 5. Either way i love the game at that point but its a huge difference for the weaker player to try and run 4 than 5. Plus some of your shot selections might change when the weaker player is going to than 5. In other words if the weaker player is going to 4 i might play safe instead of going for a tough shot where if i make it i will get a big run. Where as if he is going to 5 i might go for the shot because i need more balls but so does he. The only people that can answer this question are people that actually give up that kind of weight. Thats like you asking how should you pace yourself when running a marathon. Obviously i havent done it and dont have an experienced opinion on the matter. Like i said different strokes for different folks.

i understand your point and how you see it
since i dont give out those spots thats why i ask the question(s)
but trying to understand how the better player sees it helps
i give my opinion coming from my perspective
i listen to the responces and get to understand how it should be analysed
when all the better players agree i know thats the way to see it
when they dont i try to get alittle insight from everyone perspective

thats what makes this site great:)
 

wincardona

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billy the 2 1/2:1 ratio for 10-4 i understand
but 15 -5 is 3:1 if we compare apples to apples yes??
instead of looking at it as 5:1 in ball count
another angle would be the extra 5 balls for the better player
= 50% increase in balls to make
the 1 ball for the weaker player is 25% increase

therefore the 15-5 spot should be tougher and less preferred for the better player than 10-4
yes??
anyone can answer

I'm not quite understanding if your questioning my evaluation of the 10 to 4 game vs/ the 15 to 5 game, or my evaluation of going from 10 to 4, to 15 to 5? So let me try to clear this up.

I believe 15 to 5 is a tougher game for any player to give up over 10 to 4. When a player is giving up 10 to 4 the difference in balls needed by both players is at a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio. So if the game is a tough game for both players we are then to assume that the 2-1/2 to 1 ratio is a fair barometer.:D
If the game is changed to 15 to 5 that's a 3 to 1 ratio in ball difference, you're correct, but it's a 5 to 1 ratio that the good player is paying for the weaker player to go up 1 ball. (5 balls to 1 ball) From 10 balls to 15 balls.

As I stated earlier that stretching the game normally favors the better player, mainly because of the difficulty scoring extra balls with a limited menu of balls left on the table. But to pay a 5 to 1 ratio to extend the weaker players goal from 4 balls to 5 balls, when you're only at a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio for the 10 to 4 game is to me an overload.

Billy I.
 

lll

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vero beach fl
I'm not quite understanding if your questioning my evaluation of the 10 to 4 game vs/ the 15 to 5 game, or my evaluation of going from 10 to 4, to 15 to 5? So let me try to clear this up.

I believe 15 to 5 is a tougher game for any player to give up over 10 to 4. When a player is giving up 10 to 4 the difference in balls needed by both players is at a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio. So if the game is a tough game for both players we are then to assume that the 2-1/2 to 1 ratio is a fair barometer.:D
If the game is changed to 15 to 5 that's a 3 to 1 ratio in ball difference, you're correct, but it's a 5 to 1 ratio that the good player is paying for the weaker player to go up 1 ball. (5 balls to 1 ball) From 10 balls to 15 balls.

As I stated earlier that stretching the game normally favors the better player, mainly because of the difficulty scoring extra balls with a limited menu of balls left on the table. But to pay a 5 to 1 ratio to extend the weaker players goal from 4 balls to 5 balls, when you're only at a 2-1/2 to 1 ratio for the 10 to 4 game is to me an overload.

Billy I.

got it.:)
thanks
 

sappo

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What is the correct spot???

What is the correct spot???

I am at the Bar Table Championships at the Grand Sierra Hotel (Formerly The Hilton) in Reno Nevada. While the small table tournaments are going on there is also a "Pay as you play" one pocket tournament on ten Diamond big tables.

I spent yesterday at the race book with Ronny Allen and Mark Haddad feeding the horses. It wasn't a total disaster and last night I matched up with Scott Frost playing a little one pocket. Scott gave me a huge spot (10/5) and on paper it sounds like a good game. We raced to five and I won the first two games, feeling very comfortable. I was playing better than I did at the DCC, pocketing balls and moving well.

Then the botton fell out. Scott, adjusting to the table, turned everything around and won five in a row. Now, we all know he is going to run balls, and I did have to fade a couple runs of 9, but he had me ducking for my life on almost every shot after he settled down. He cuts down any angles to balls on my side and in play and almost never misses a shot that will go directly in his hole. He had me ducking and taking scratches just to stay alive a while longer.

I might have a chance getting the break too, but he gets out of the break and turns it around like the champion he is.

Tournament 9 ball today and the Pay As You Play one pocket tournament tonight and hopefully a little easier action than messing with champions.

Very interesting report John. My question to you is knowing what you have just been through playing Scott, what do you think you would need from him to make an EVEN game? What would you need if you were playing 100 games for a meaningful amount so the at the end of the 100 games then score would only be a few games apart. I know this is a hypathetical question but give it your best estimate. Keith
 

jrhendy

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Placerville, CA
Very interesting report John. My question to you is knowing what you have just been through playing Scott, what do you think you would need from him to make an EVEN game? What would you need if you were playing 100 games for a meaningful amount so the at the end of the 100 games then score would only be a few games apart. I know this is a hypathetical question but give it your best estimate. Keith

I think 10/5 and the break is the game and I can probably get it if he isn't getting other action. He offered it on his home table at Kolby's and I turned it down. He plays a ball or so better there IMO. Problem is he may want to bet more than me.:D

I may try again on a Gold Crown in my home court. More comfortable for me and while I play on my own $$, I do give friends a piece sometimes just to get something going. He puts unbelievable pressure on you and if you like to get in the box, that is what it's all about.
 
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