Laying down a trap

Jeff sparks

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Interesting topic.

Being a rotation player ( years ago ) has not helped me learn anything about one pocket. Retraining the thought processes is not easy, finding the right shot and the right place to leave the CB is difficult, especially when your previous ability dealt primarily with run out patterns, and ball to ball position.

One pocket requires knowledge and the ability to control the CB. Seems the really good players have the ability to always find the most uncomfortable place to leave the CB, and they have the ability to put it there. They combine that talent with the art of moving a ball, or multiple balls to a position which favors them. It all sounds easy, leave your opponent in the stack, froze on a rail or 9 ft. away and under a ball or froze to the joint! This is not easy to learn, it requires perfect speed, which is another attribute the great players have in their arsenal.
The learning curve in one pocket is in direct proportion to the amount of time spent acquiring knowledge of the game and it's moves and strategies. 8 & out is fun, but playing the game correctly is where it's at. One day, maybe one day I'll learn how!
 

beatle

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if you can make long and tough shots and or do runouts you have an advantage over the superior mover that cannot shoot as well.

that advantage is that you have much more of the table to use than the mover, as
he cant or doesnt shoot at the long shots so the shooter can leave him there with basically a free shot if left in a similar spot.
 

keoneyo

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Interesting topic.

Being a rotation player ( years ago ) has not helped me learn anything about one pocket. Retraining the thought processes is not easy, finding the right shot and the right place to leave the CB is difficult, especially when your previous ability dealt primarily with run out patterns, and ball to ball position.

One pocket requires knowledge and the ability to control the CB. Seems the really good players have the ability to always find the most uncomfortable place to leave the CB, and they have the ability to put it there. They combine that talent with the art of moving a ball, or multiple balls to a position which favors them. It all sounds easy, leave your opponent in the stack, froze on a rail or 9 ft. away and under a ball or froze to the joint! This is not easy to learn, it requires perfect speed, which is another attribute the great players have in their arsenal.
The learning curve in one pocket is in direct proportion to the amount of time spent acquiring knowledge of the game and it's moves and strategies. 8 & out is fun, but playing the game correctly is where it's at. One day, maybe one day I'll learn how!

Beautiful post Jeff. Let me ask you a question to get your mind thinking.
Would one as a beginning one pocket player want to learn how to pocket balls first or how to move whitey. This is like a chicken or the egg question.
I would say everyone wants to learn how to pocket balls first. That's the sexy part of the game.
But its the yob who learns the moves or principles of the game who can always learn how to pocket balls in time that I think has the upper hand.
For the guy who can fire balls in will have a hard time with the discipline of the complex game later.
Every one wants to take those pawns but how to get to Checkmate is a different quest.
Of course a balanced approach is best but ample time must be taken with strategy, discipline, and conceptual thinking, which is to me in the forefront, for that is the hardest thing about the game and just ball striking alone will not suffice.
 

LSJohn

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Thanks Pete. Good topic. This may seem a little argumentative, but we've already got about 1000 words trying to reinvent the wheel on Sun Tzu. There's a limit to how much can be productively said about this since we already understand the basics, and most of them depend more on good execution than they do on keeping your opponent unaware of what you're trying to do.

I really wish I understood this.
When it's my shot I decide whether to shoot at my pocket or play safe.
If safe, I try to put the CB in the worst place possible.
There's never 2 or 3 shots ahead, It seems inane to think you'll know what your opponent will do, although granted sometime he won't have many options.
Just the same you'll often be surprised, maybe pleasantly.
This is probably why I have more problems with some than others, maybe they're are trapping me 2 or 3 shots ahead and I'm to stupid to notice.

You build traps all the time Rod. You just do it one shot at a time where you KNOW what you have to deal with to improve your position or make his worse, rather than speculating about what might happen 2,3,4 shots from now. Besides, you don't want to slow the game down so much that you lose your action. :heh

Frank offered an example that had enough substance and specificity to be helpful; I'm thinking that all of us C-player and up understand the concept, but I probably won't recognize a good trap opportunity until somebody has puts me in one like it. :eek:

Opportunities to trap without good execution don't come up very often. As the Colonel says, "Some days I have it, some days I don't."

I know one thing: I'd better not be thinking two or three shots ahead when I pull the trigger. :p
 

Skin

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On the idea of thinking multiple shots ahead to set and tighten a trap on the guy, I can't think of a scenario for that other than when you have a cluster of blocker balls you can keep putting him behind and his only shot out of it is to leave you where you can improve your position and stick him right back there.

An example would be if there's a cluster of balls on the foot rail by his hole and from there all he can do to make a legal shot is thin and go uptable to get a rail. If the rest of the balls are sitting right, you can move and stick him again, and again, until he finally gets sick of it and tries to get rid of that cluster. By that time you may have an overwhelming advantage and you can start a good run. Another example would be using the stack itself or a line of blockers more out in the open table.

I can't imagine, though, planning to go from one trap to a different one and then another like some kind of mastermind. So, I am with the guys who see it that way.
 

petie

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Great insights from all of you. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the relative value of closeness to the obstructing ball. I.e., its a lot more effective to be sewed to the ball than just behind it.
 

Jeff sparks

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Beautiful post Jeff. Let me ask you a question to get your mind thinking.
Would one as a beginning one pocket player want to learn how to pocket balls first or how to move whitey. This is like a chicken or the egg question.
I would say everyone wants to learn how to pocket balls first. That's the sexy part of the game.
But its the yob who learns the moves or principles of the game who can always learn how to pocket balls in time that I think has the upper hand.
For the guy who can fire balls in will have a hard time with the discipline of the complex game later.
Every one wants to take those pawns but how to get to Checkmate is a different quest.
Of course a balanced approach is best but ample time must be taken with strategy, discipline, and conceptual thinking, which is to me in the forefront, for that is the hardest thing about the game and just ball striking alone will not suffice.

I'm in the camp of learning the game first. If you know where to place the CB and how to place it there, then you are going to be hard to beat, especially if you are constantly moving the balls to a favorable position. This can only be accomplished with a keen knowledge of the game and good CB control. Running balls only works when an opportunity presents itself, and that's rare against a player with a mind for the game and it's moves.

In summation, I'd say a player with great CB control and a greater knowledge of one pocket will prevail over the player who knows little of the game but can run 8 & out easily.

So let me pose a question for you,
Who would you rather play against, someone who couldn't run out but kept you in trouble all the time or someone who could run out but left you maneuver room most of the time.
 

LSJohn

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Would one as a beginning one pocket player want to learn how to pocket balls first or how to move whitey.

Oh, moving of course. I think I'd start a new player on coming off the stack two rails to freeze against the back of the 2 ball. Sheeeeeeiiiiitt, he can always learn to shoot like SVB, just takes a little time after he learns the moves.

Are you on drugs or am I?

::checking:: ................... Nope, not me.
 

keoneyo

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I'm in the camp of learning the game first. If you know where to place the CB and how to place it there, then you are going to be hard to beat, especially if you are constantly moving the balls to a favorable position. This can only be accomplished with a keen knowledge of the game and good CB control. Running balls only works when an opportunity presents itself, and that's rare against a player with a mind for the game and it's moves.

In summation, I'd say a player with great CB control and a greater knowledge of one pocket will prevail over the player who knows little of the game but can run 8 & out easily.

So let me pose a question for you,
Who would you rather play against, someone who couldn't run out but kept you in trouble all the time or someone who could run out but left you maneuver room most of the time.

I would like to play someone with a more orthodox game. Some one who plays outside the parameters are hard to second guess and predict. For a player on my level that is. A master can always take apart those that are wilder and trickier.
I remember in Martial arts contests It was the wild guys that were always hard to beat. The orthodox guys you could figure out and win or lose you could get in your licks.
So for me I guess Id rather play in tournaments or short races with movers. And a longer period of time a shooter.
 

straightback

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owensboro, ky
In summation, I'd say a player with great CB control and a greater knowledge of one pocket will prevail over the player who knows little of the game but can run 8 & out easily.

Maybe at the recreational level, but at the top level, how do you explain the likes of an SVB winning one pocket tournaments?
 

wincardona

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This thread has gotten me dizzy, how can a player think three four shots ahead when we here at one pocket .org have 300 different opinions on just about every shot the Ghost puts up on the wwyd's. Plus if we were to even try to think in those terms it would be too taxing on our brain (at least mine) which would in turn create stamina problems. I can understand choosing an option based off of what we feel our opponent will do in response, but three four shots ahead is to me a little too much.

I like beatles advice when he says ..understand both your game and your opponents game and choose your options that will create problems for your opponent (based on his skills) and for you choose options within your skill level.

Experienced one pocket players understand positions because they have played the game long enough to store remedies for just about every position. Yes remedies (meaning more than one) there are usually several close options that we can choose from a menu of options that will give us the best chance to escape or put our opponent in a trap. But again, as beatle say's choose the option you know your opponent doesn't want you to choose and at other times choose the option you feel most comfortable with choosing to fit your game.

Imo, all we can do is look at a position and try to attack it in a special way, based off of the history of results in similar positions, and be willing to switch gears when necessary. It's too much to ask ourselves to "game plan" a position that requires thinking too far ahead because of all the different options that present themselves.

Dr. Bill
 

crabbcatjohn

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John Im not trying to be rude, but maybe you do not really "know his game well". Maybe you underestimated him. If that is the case you trapped yourself.

Go back and review. Take notes on your mistakes. Take notes on the shots he made. Review in your mind and dont make that mistake again.
In poker its call reviewing your hand history. Review your game and shots you selected. There must have been something you could have done better.

In cases like these. I like to use a phrase that Im paraphrasing from a friend.

Leave him NOTHING!-Freddie the Beard on Chicago style.

I think my problem the other day was i made some unforced errors the first few games and he got a few games up. Then when i was leaving him hard off angle banks that were sell outs or difficult long sell out shots he didn't feel any heat. Then he chose the hard shots instead of trying a safe and kept draining them.
 

keoneyo

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This thread has gotten me dizzy, how can a player think three four shots ahead when we here at one pocket .org have 300 different opinions on just about every shot the Ghost puts up on the wwyd's. Plus if we were to even try to think in those terms it would be too taxing on our brain (at least mine) which would in turn create stamina problems. I can understand choosing an option based off of what we feel our opponent will do in response, but three four shots ahead is to me a little too much.

I like beatles advice when he says ..understand both your game and your opponents game and choose your options that will create problems for your opponent (based on his skills) and for you choose options within your skill level.

Experienced one pocket players understand positions because they have played the game long enough to store remedies for just about every position. Yes remedies (meaning more than one) there are usually several close options that we can choose from a menu of options that will give us the best chance to escape or put our opponent in a trap. But again, as beatle say's choose the option you know your opponent doesn't want you to choose and at other times choose the option you feel most comfortable with choosing to fit your game.

Imo, all we can do is look at a position and try to attack it in a special way, based off of the history of results in similar positions, and be willing to switch gears when necessary. It's too much to ask ourselves to "game plan" a position that requires thinking too far ahead because of all the different options that present themselves.

Dr. Bill

Billy I think you can look 2 or 3 shots ahead. In terms of strategy. That is looking at the table as a whole. People discuss it all the time in the WWYD's. If you do that then Ill do this then what will you do?

In your commentary you will allude to problem balls and problem areas. Now how do you resolve them. Sometimes it will take you more than one inning to resolve them. Lets say there is a ball frozen to the top rail on my side near my hole. I have to move that ball because it doesn't benefit me but benefits my opponent with a 2 railer to his hole. But I cant see it. I have to get to it some how.

So planning 2 shots ahead to resolve that problem might be in force here.

My concept is to look at the table as a whole and have plans. Instead of looking at the shot to your hole and then figure out what can happen.'

I did not mean it should take away from the organic way of going from inning to inning. Chess and Poker players do it all the time and while playing more than one game at a time.
 

Tom Wirth

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Wow guys! I don't know where to begin. There have been numerous ideas about how best to improve our one pocket play. One being to get in the heads of our opponents by thinking several shots in advance. This is good advice. Another was to consider how should we play against a mover verses a shooter and which of these two would we be better off playing against. This too is sound thinking. But some of you are over complicating the game by suggesting, for one thing, that we should try to hide with subtlety many of our moves. Rarely is that necessary. This may work against some weaker players but it will almost never work against more knowledgeable foes. Just do the right thing at the right time. What determines the right thing though?

Well, If you are setting a trap, just remember the three elements needed. A ball on your side rail, a ball along the foot rail, and the cue ball in such a place as to make it difficult for your opponent to negotiate the cue ball into a safe zone. How he does that is not all that important and not all that easy to anticipate. All that analysis can become very fatiguing and only matters to the point of understanding your opponent’s abilities better. So just keep it simple and take balls away from his scoring zone and move them into areas that serve you better. Then hide the rock. If you are on the defensive side of the coin and wish to avoid being trapped, try to create a safe zone in anticipation of your opponent's next move. If possible, clear one or both of the elements your opponent needs to set his trap. The foot rail is usually a safe haven when trouble is brewing.

Create momentum by preventing your opponent from creating his own momentum by moving balls helpful to your adversary into areas more to your liking. Strive to position balls into areas which will enable you to run the necessary numbers to win the game when you do come up with a good shot, and learn to run the balls in patterns which offer the greatest percentages. There is nothing more final or effective than running out the game. All the moves in the world cannot equal this one. Great shooters will find a shot given enough opportunities, and when they do find that one shot, they will score heavily.

Sure, you must learn the game within the game and develop sound moving skills, but by all means, learn to run the balls so that when you get the opportunity, you are prepared to score more than two or three, or four or five, or six or seven. Run out! This is what will make you a force in the game! Nothing you do will have a greater impact on your opponent than consistently running the game out when you find the opportunity.

You don't have to be a great shot maker in this game to be very effective against other top players but it of course helps. For the most part in the earlier stages of the game, enough balls are located at the foot of the table. How tough is it to shoot shots within three or four feet of your pocket? It comes down to planning the best patterns, knowing how to work the stack properly, and avoiding playing difficult position on single balls when other possibilities are out there. It just isn’t that complicated.

This game is very much like chess but it is also very different. Unlike Chess, thinking several moves ahead in One Pocket is nearly impossible. Why? Because the landscape changes so rapidly. Only one piece at a time can be moved on a chess board and there is always a best move and a best reply regardless of who is playing the game. We all know that is not the case in our chosen game. We play with personalities and the game requires a certain degree of skill and heart. We must be able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of our adversaries and those within ourselves in much the same way armies do in times of war.

Tom
 
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androd

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This thread has gotten me dizzy, how can a player think three four shots ahead when we here at one pocket .org have 300 different opinions on just about every shot the Ghost puts up on the wwyd's. Plus if we were to even try to think in those terms it would be too taxing on our brain (at least mine) which would in turn create stamina problems. I can understand choosing an option based off of what we feel our opponent will do in response, but three four shots ahead is to me a little too much.

n he says ..understand both your game and your opponents game and choose your options that will create problems for your opponent (based on his skills) and for you choose options within your skill level.

Experienced one pocket players understand positions because they have played the game long enough to store remedies for just about every position. Yes remedies (meaning more than one) there are usually several close options that we can choose from a menu of options that will give us the best chance to escape or put our opponent in a trap. But again, as beatle say's choose the option you know your opponent doesn't want you to choose and at other times choose the option you feel most comfortable with choosing to fit your game.

Imo, all we can do is look at a position and try to attack it in a special way, based off of the history of results in similar positions, and be willing to switch gears when necessary. It's too much to ask ourselves to "game plan" a position that requires thinking too far ahead because of all the different options that present themselves.

Dr. Bill

Finally a voice of reason to join LSJohn and myself. I never bought in to the 3 or more shots ahead when it was discussed years ago. Artie thought so and most worshiped his opinion, no matter how inane it is/was.
 

keoneyo

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This game is very much like chess but it is also very different. Unlike Chess, thinking several moves ahead in One Pocket is nearly impossible. Why? Because the landscape changes so rapidly. Only one piece at a time can be moved on a chess board and there is always a best move and a best reply regardless of who is playing the game. We all know that is not the case in our chosen game. We play with personalities and the game requires a certain degree of skill and heart. We must be able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of our adversaries and those within ourselves in much the same way armies do in times of war.

Tom

Tom the thread topic is Laying Down a Trap. In doing so do you not think how your opponent will respond? Do you not think of the options that he can take?
What if instead of shooting out of it he takes an intentional do you have an alternate plan instead. This is what I mean about thinking 2 or 3 shots ahead.

I am all for keeping it simple. But I believe the human brain can process a lot of information. We just have to use it.

Maybe it comes with time and experience but in my observations people make the same errors again and again. They are not using their brains to analyze the situation. They are playing on basic instinct aggressive or passive.

As you alluded this particular game is complex and a simple approach is best. But we still have to have an educated approach.

Also armies at war have Generals. They have a staff. They configurate and propose different solutions to problems. We do it all the time in WWYDs
 
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petie

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Maybe at the recreational level, but at the top level, how do you explain the likes of an SVB winning one pocket tournaments?

Straight shooters are hard to beat because they have the potential to run out anytime you leave them a shot. SVB gets by on this. Pit him against a good One Pocket player and he will have his hands full most of the time.
 

petie

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I think my problem the other day was i made some unforced errors the first few games and he got a few games up. Then when i was leaving him hard off angle banks that were sell outs or difficult long sell out shots he didn't feel any heat. Then he chose the hard shots instead of trying a safe and kept draining them.

Traps and long, off angle banks etc. aren't that effective unless you have a fertile ball in you hole. They are free shots.
 

petie

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This thread has gotten me dizzy, how can a player think three four shots ahead when we here at one pocket .org have 300 different opinions on just about every shot the Ghost puts up on the wwyd's. Plus if we were to even try to think in those terms it would be too taxing on our brain (at least mine) which would in turn create stamina problems. I can understand choosing an option based off of what we feel our opponent will do in response, but three four shots ahead is to me a little too much.

I like beatles advice when he says ..understand both your game and your opponents game and choose your options that will create problems for your opponent (based on his skills) and for you choose options within your skill level.

Experienced one pocket players understand positions because they have played the game long enough to store remedies for just about every position. Yes remedies (meaning more than one) there are usually several close options that we can choose from a menu of options that will give us the best chance to escape or put our opponent in a trap. But again, as beatle say's choose the option you know your opponent doesn't want you to choose and at other times choose the option you feel most comfortable with choosing to fit your game.

Imo, all we can do is look at a position and try to attack it in a special way, based off of the history of results in similar positions, and be willing to switch gears when necessary. It's too much to ask ourselves to "game plan" a position that requires thinking too far ahead because of all the different options that present themselves.

Dr. Bill

TVOR raises his head again.
 

petie

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Citrus Springs, FL
Wow guys! I don't know where to begin. There have been numerous ideas about how best to improve our one pocket play. One being to get in the heads of our opponents by thinking several shots in advance. This is good advice. Another was to consider how should we play against a mover verses a shooter and which of these two would we be better off playing against. This too is sound thinking. But some of you are over complicating the game by suggesting, for one thing, that we should try to hide with subtlety many of our moves. Rarely is that necessary. This may work against some weaker players but it will almost never work against more knowledgeable foes. Just do the right thing at the right time. What determines the right thing though?

Well, If you are setting a trap, just remember the three elements needed. A ball on your side rail, a ball along the foot rail, and the cue ball in such a place as to make it difficult for your opponent to negotiate the cue ball into a safe zone. How he does that is not all that important and not all that easy to anticipate. All that analysis can become very fatiguing and only matters to the point of understanding your opponent’s abilities better. So just keep it simple and take balls away from his scoring zone and move them into areas that serve you better. Then hide the rock. If you are on the defensive side of the coin and wish to avoid being trapped, try to create a safe zone in anticipation of your opponent's next move. If possible, clear one or both of the elements your opponent needs to set his trap. The foot rail is usually a safe haven when trouble is brewing.

Create momentum by preventing your opponent from creating his own momentum by moving balls helpful to your adversary into areas more to your liking. Strive to position balls into areas which will enable you to run the necessary numbers to win the game when you do come up with a good shot, and learn to run the balls in patterns which offer the greatest percentages. There is nothing more final or effective than running out the game. All the moves in the world cannot equal this one. Great shooters will find a shot given enough opportunities, and when they do find that one shot, they will score heavily.

Sure, you must learn the game within the game and develop sound moving skills, but by all means, learn to run the balls so that when you get the opportunity, you are prepared to score more than two or three, or four or five, or six or seven. Run out! This is what will make you a force in the game! Nothing you do will have a greater impact on your opponent than consistently running the game out when you find the opportunity.

You don't have to be a great shot maker in this game to be very effective against other top players but it of course helps. For the most part in the earlier stages of the game, enough balls are located at the foot of the table. How tough is it to shoot shots within three or four feet of your pocket? It comes down to planning the best patterns, knowing how to work the stack properly, and avoiding playing difficult position on single balls when other possibilities are out there. It just isn’t that complicated.

This game is very much like chess but it is also very different. Unlike Chess, thinking several moves ahead in One Pocket is nearly impossible. Why? Because the landscape changes so rapidly. Only one piece at a time can be moved on a chess board and there is always a best move and a best reply regardless of who is playing the game. We all know that is not the case in our chosen game. We play with personalities and the game requires a certain degree of skill and heart. We must be able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of our adversaries and those within ourselves in much the same way armies do in times of war.

Tom

IOW buy Tom's book if you don't already have it.
 
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