Bank lesson 2: how do you get max ob spin on cut banks

tylerdurden

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Ok, as I mentioned in the other thread, I set up an experiment a while back, and redid it a few days ago. I was thrilled to see J Brumback mention that he feels the same... anyway, here is what I did:

First, my question was -- how can you put max spin on an ob on a cut bank. I'm no good with the wei tables, but the first thing I did was put a piece of chalk (a penny may have been better) on the rail to ensure I was hitting about the same spot every time. If the chalk didn't fly, I discarded the results. MAybe I need a wei table, but what I did was shoot banks into that chalk from THE SAME ob location, yet I moved the cb from full hits to thin hits.

Let me just say what I found, I think that is less confusing.

1) center ball hits seemed to transfer the maximum english based on seeing how long I could get the ob off that 1 rail.

2) thin cuts and thick cuts could not transfer nearly as much english as HALF BALL hits. This was pronounced. That half ball, center on the cb hits were really the ones to torque that ob over the most.

The results were surprising because you may think that an inside ball would transfer more spin to the ob. This just wasn't true. I couldn't get the ob anywhere near as long with an inside ball than with a center ball.

I'll work on the wei table thing because I think this post is super wordy and lacking :) And, as always, thanks for any input and/or telling me I am dead wrong (or right :)).
 

tylerdurden

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Ok, this is ghetto, I just stole from the forum over there. Ignore all the other balls lol. This was my experiment.... what I did was set up an ob at point B every time. Chalk was sitting ON the cushion (felt part) at spot A. I varied the cb position from X, Y and Z... and shot with ALL different sorts of spin (inside top, inside low, outside bottom etc) from each spot. That line between A and B is supposed to be parallel to the side cushions too, may not look it in the pic.

Again, it was so pronounced. Center ball, with cb in position Y BY FAR got the ob over to the pocket the most. I could actually come close to making it with center from there after bouncing the chalk off... but making that exact shot will vary by table and isn't really the point here. The other variations weren't even coming close.

In short, I think center is the answer to the question.... which i'm sure everybody but me here knew before now :) So we can all delete this thread now if you want, just tell me if I am right or not first :D
 

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fred bentivegna

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Extraordinarily confusing

Extraordinarily confusing

A. What is an "inside" ball? B. What is the shot your are shooting, and what ball are you shooting at?

Beard

Plus, using an elevated cue I can put an amazing amount of throwing english on an object ball and hitting it almost full.
 

androd

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Tyler, I'm not a bank player. IMO if you strike down on the CB
X should go close to the pocket.
Y looks like you're dealing with a kiss ?
Z is a very difficult shot.
Rod.
P.S. I'll try to post your layout if you like. :)
 

tylerdurden

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I confused everybody, even myself perhaps. I could not find a pic of a table with no balls on it, so I used that picture. Really, try to picture none of those balls being there. The pockets don't need to be there either actually. The point of the X Y Z was to find out 1) which angle you can get the most spin on the ob with, and 2) what stroke you can get the most spin on the ob with. I was shooting at an ob ALWAYS located at point B, and I always hit point A with the ob, as "measured" by the chalk jumping off or not.

Bear in mind, i'm not even trying to make a bank there, just trying to see how far to the right (bottom right in pic) I can hit with differing strokes and cb positions with an IDENTICAL initial line of the ob (ie straight up the table). Oh god, I need a better diagram.

What I found was, I was getting the most spin on the object ball when the cb was near the Y point (ie about a half ball hit) and the stroke was a dead center ball. When I used inside (meaning left english in that diagram), I didn't get as much spin on the ob. The spin was "measured" by seeing how far to the right the ob banked off that first rail. The more to the right, the more spin. In essence, kisses or anything like that didn't matter one iota, I was strictly trying to see how far the ob would go to the right after hitting one rail, as I always hit the same spot on the end rail (ie "A"). :confused:
 

androd

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I confused everybody, even myself perhaps. I could not find a pic of a table with no balls on it, so I used that picture. Really, try to picture none of those balls being there. The pockets don't need to be there either actually. The point of the X Y Z was to find out 1) which angle you can get the most spin on the ob with, and 2) what stroke you can get the most spin on the ob with. I was shooting at an ob ALWAYS located at point B, and I always hit point A with the ob, as "measured" by the chalk jumping off or not.

Bear in mind, i'm not even trying to make a bank there, just trying to see how far to the right (bottom right in pic) I can hit with differing strokes and cb positions with an IDENTICAL initial line of the ob (ie straight up the table). Oh god, I need a better diagram.

What I found was, I was getting the most spin on the object ball when the cb was near the Y point (ie about a half ball hit) and the stroke was a dead center ball. When I used inside (meaning left english in that diagram), I didn't get as much spin on the ob. The spin was "measured" by seeing how far to the right the ob banked off that first rail. The more to the right, the more spin. In essence, kisses or anything like that didn't matter one iota, I was strictly trying to see how far the ob would go to the right after hitting one rail, as I always hit the same spot on the end rail (ie "A"). :confused:

As I said above IMO X will turn the most. It looks like a true 1/2 ball hit. Y will turn also, but you''l get more collision English with X.
Rod.
P.S. Tyler, I'm not trying to argue about your results at all. I was only giving my opinion ( however feeble it may be)
 
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lll

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tyler
you will love this link
this is alittle more for your "first lesson question"
recommend an aspirin first (if you are not allergic:D
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin
dr.dave has more stuff than there is time to absorb!!!!:eek::D

With shots like the one in the video above, throw and spin transfer are maximum at slower speeds with about 50% English (half maximum). However, at slow speeds, more of the transferred spin will wear off on the way to the rail, so the optimal speed (for the spin-transfer rebound-angle-change effect) will depend on conditions and the distance to the rail.


heres another video
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-30.htm


freddys first book goes into alot of this (and more)really well
http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?cat=4
of course johns dvd talks about this also
http://new2youq.ipower.com/cues/John Brumback.htm
got to be an equal opportunity endorser:D
 
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tylerdurden

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tyler
you will love this link
this is alittle more for your "first lesson question"
recommend an aspirin first (if you are not allergic:D
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin
dr.dave has more stuff than there is time to absorb!!!!:eek::D

With shots like the one in the video above, throw and spin transfer are maximum at slower speeds with about 50% English (half maximum). However, at slow speeds, more of the transferred spin will wear off on the way to the rail, so the optimal speed (for the spin-transfer rebound-angle-change effect) will depend on conditions and the distance to the rail.


heres another video
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-30.htm


freddys first book goes into alot of this (and more)really well
http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?cat=4
of course johns dvd talks about this also
http://new2youq.ipower.com/cues/John Brumback.htm
got to be an equal opportunity endorser:D

Thanks for the posts all.

Larry, I have Beards book, and the results I got (however feeble they are), contrasted with what Beard said in his book, namely inside english you could spin the ball over more. On pages 33 & 35... the results I got indicated half ball hits put more (Androd says about 1/4 ball hits put more, which is what freddy says in his book), and that center ball puts more, not inside as indicated in the book. I posted because my results seemed so different.... I did double check it, but who knows, maybe I did something wrong. Yet, John mentioned something in the other thread about center actually being the one with the most torque ability (this mad sense with my results). So, maybe I can try to set it up again and see if Anrod and Freddy got me.... I probably just overlooked something.... it really did seem that ob was only going over far with 1/2 ball and center ball hit though. :confused:
 

tylerdurden

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For the sake of clarity, forget that first, ghetto diagram :)

For the sake of clarity, forget that first, ghetto diagram :)

Here is my experiment one more time for clarity.

The only way I was able to get the ob over anywhere near "C" was a dead centerball hit, and a half ball cut. Center ball with that fuller hit "Z" or the thinner hit "X" weren't getting there. Others say they can get over more with the thinner (1/4 or so hit), and perhaps that is true :frus

Many of the variations were coming up at or near D, as I was mentioning, it was really pronounced (as in not even close) how much further over this center ball and 1/2 ball hit was taking it.

Anyway, forgive my incoherent ramblings :D
 

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tylerdurden

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As I said above IMO X will turn the most. It looks like a true 1/2 ball hit. Y will turn also, but you''l get more collision English with X.
Rod.
P.S. Tyler, I'm not trying to argue about your results at all. I was only giving my opinion ( however feeble it may be)

Anrod, I am not able to maybe line up the letters and diagram to a one half ball hit exactly, but it was a half ball hit on the table. Maybe this is why my diagram is so unclear. It is hard to line those letter as if they were balls, ha.

Whatever the case or whatever the diagram looks like, the true getting it over the most was 1/2 ball hits when I did it, unless I screwed something up (very possible).

Were you saying that you feel the 1/2 ball will get over more than others cut angles as well? Instead of using the diagram, I think it is better to just discuss in words :eek:
 

androd

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Anrod, I am not able to maybe line up the letters and diagram to a one half ball hit exactly, but it was a half ball hit on the table. Maybe this is why my diagram is so unclear. It is hard to line those letter as if they were balls, ha.

Whatever the case or whatever the diagram looks like, the true getting it over the most was 1/2 ball hits when I did it, unless I screwed something up (very possible).

Were you saying that you feel the 1/2 ball will get over more than others cut angles as well? Instead of using the diagram, I think it is better to just discuss in words :eek:

Yes I think the 1/2 ball hit will turn the most. Inside English works against the shot as it tends to make you cut the OB more. I mentioned before, striking down on the CB helps me turn the OB better than using English.
Rod.
 

mojoe

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Those are some great experiments.. You can read and study all you want but until you do experiments like this, for yourself, you really can't understand how balls react.

I'm also one that loves to experiment with shots to see the limits. I got this idea after a lesson with John Brumback. Since my lesson with him, my banks game has soared to a whole different dimension.

I still have a LONG ways to go but I have a much better understanding of how the game should be played..
 

tylerdurden

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Those are some great experiments.. You can read and study all you want but until you do experiments like this, for yourself, you really can't understand how balls react.

I'm also one that loves to experiment with shots to see the limits. I got this idea after a lesson with John Brumback. Since my lesson with him, my banks game has soared to a whole different dimension.

I still have a LONG ways to go but I have a much better understanding of how the game should be played..

John is an amazing guy, i'd love to get a lesson one day. He is more than generous around here dropping little pieces of advice -- very gracious of him, and very appreciated.

As you mentioned, my bank game has gone up a bunch too as I learned some of this stuff. Thanks for the comments!
 

lll

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tyler try your experiment with the object ball closer to the rail
see if the inside english turns the ball more
let us know the results
 

Dudley

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Thanks for the posts all.

Larry, I have Beards book, and the results I got (however feeble they are), contrasted with what Beard said in his book, namely inside english you could spin the ball over more. On pages 33 & 35... the results I got indicated half ball hits put more (Androd says about 1/4 ball hits put more, which is what freddy says in his book), and that center ball puts more, not inside as indicated in the book. I posted because my results seemed so different.... I did double check it, but who knows, maybe I did something wrong. Yet, John mentioned something in the other thread about center actually being the one with the most torque ability (this mad sense with my results). So, maybe I can try to set it up again and see if Anrod and Freddy got me.... I probably just overlooked something.... it really did seem that ob was only going over far with 1/2 ball and center ball hit though. :confused:


When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud
 
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lll

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When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.
edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

john B mentions this on many shots
he shows several shots with the comment
you will never make this shot if you put too much english on it
{paraphrased)
john correct me if ive misspoken its been awhile since i watched your dvd but this thread will get me to re - read freddies books and watch your dvd again and take better notes this time:)
 

tylerdurden

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When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course :) It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true :)

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.
 
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Dudley

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I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course :) It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true :)

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.

Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little. :)

Dud
 

tylerdurden

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Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little. :)

Dud

Right, I think one good way to put it is.... for max throw on full hits spin needs to be used to get max english on the ob (john mentioned when the cb stops dead is the most transfer he sees), yet on half ball hits i think the cling using center is the best way to get the max spin on the ob.
 
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