J. Brumback vs. J. Miller 2004 D.C.C.#2

Cowboy Dennis said:

Jason banked the 9 ball cross-side from where John left him and went up & down the table with the rock to this position. What would you shoot from here?

CAUTION: Pictures are sometimes deceptive


View attachment 5645

View attachment 5646

Click to expand...

No matter the score you can't pass up this free bank on the 3 ball.The idea to this game is to get 5 before your opp, not to see who can play the most safes.On top of that this guy never misses an easy bank like this, i don' care if it's 20ft.(OH,KY thing)You play around with this guy.. your going to come up short.This guy never plays safe in this tourny and just look at what he has done in this tourny with around 400 players in it every year.You will outsmart yourself if you nit around with this guy.When and if you get a shot with Jason Miller.. you better shoot.Your welcome and I hope ya'll don't have to face him.You will not like the outcome nittin around with those week safes and stuff.One way to beat this guy and that's just to man up and shoot.
Note;don't outsmart yourself either:sorry John B.

I'm peeing into the wind

I'm peeing into the wind

I must have learned the game backwards. So far, strategy, something that allowed me to play a pretty good speed for about 30 years dont seem to have much value anymore. I guess I have fallen victim to "progress."

All my life I based my basic strategy on my opponent -- not me-- having to shoot at 9 footers, while I was aggressive with cross sides and cross corners. That worked pretty good for me for a long time. I based my game on yardage, like football -- only in reverse. The more yardage my opponent accumulated, the better chance I had to win. In those days nobody called me a "nit" or a coward, they called me "smart."

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

I must have learned the game backwards. So far, strategy, something that allowed me to play a pretty good speed for about 30 years dont seem to have much value anymore. I guess I have fallen victim to "progress."

All my life I based my basic strategy on my opponent -- not me-- having to shoot at 9 footers, while I was aggressive with cross sides and cross corners. That worked pretty good for me for a long time. I based my game on yardage, like football -- only in reverse. The more yardage my opponent accumulated, the better chance I had to win. In those days nobody called me a "nit" or a coward, they called me "smart."

Beard

Click to expand...

The first step to finding the cure is admitting you have a problem.. I congratulate you on speaking up and admitting you have been playing backwards. There may be help for you yet.

Lets take another poll...

Lets take another poll...

.. Does everybody want to try and learn something here, or would ya'll rather be amused by "Hocker" (Yiddish word, stop hocking mir im chinick) or by the consternation between myself and Dr Bill? I really need to know.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

I'm peeing into the wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I must have learned the game backwards. So far, strategy, something that allowed me to play a pretty good speed for about 30 years dont seem to have much value anymore. I guess I have fallen victim to "progress."

All my life I based my basic strategy on my opponent -- not me-- having to shoot at 9 footers, while I was aggressive with cross sides and cross corners. That worked pretty good for me for a long time. I based my game on yardage, like football -- only in reverse. The more yardage my opponent accumulated, the better chance I had to win. In those days nobody called me a "nit" or a coward, they called me "smart."

Beard

Click to expand...

Freddy,

You may be pissing into the wind my friend but I'm getting wet too




Cowboy "Don't go where the huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow" Dennis

fred bentivegna said:

.. Does everybody want to try and learn something here, or would ya'll rather be amused by "Hocker" (Yiddish word, stop hocking mir im chinick) or by the consternation between myself and Dr Bill? I really need to know.

Beard

Click to expand...

Fred, it appears to me that the Hacker like the Duck gets off by busting your balls. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of the games we play on the table, and everything to do with entertainment, for them.

I don't get off on busting balls, that's not me. I'm all about teaching people to play better, and if we're explaining our view points and they aren't in agreement, that doesn't mean that neither you nor me are right or wrong, because we both could be right or wrong. (i'm betting on right) Yes whenever we disagree on a shot, there are people that like your way, as many that may like my way of thinking. But in no way should you feel helpless when you and I debate, if anything you should feel good about the healthy debate. You seem to me that your very upset because you can't believe that what you say isn't taken at face value, and that frustrates you.:sorry

Don't you know that people, myself included have learned a lot from reading your thoughts on different situations? Think about what i'm saying and eat some pasta.

Dr. Bill

fred bentivegna said:

.. Does everybody want to try and learn something here, or would ya'll rather be amused by "Hocker" (Yiddish word, stop hocking mir im chinick) or by the consternation between myself and Dr Bill? I really need to know.

Beard

Click to expand...

wincardona said:

Fred, it appears to me that the Hacker like the Duck gets off by busting your balls. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of the games we play on the table, and everything to do with entertainment, for them.

I don't get off on busting balls, that's not me. I'm all about teaching people to play better, and if we're explaining our view points and they aren't in agreement, that doesn't mean that neither you nor me are right or wrong, because we both could be right or wrong. (i'm betting on right) Yes whenever we disagree on a shot, there are people that like your way, as many that may like my way of thinking. But in no way should you feel helpless when you and I debate, if anything you should feel good about the healthy debate. You seem to me that your very upset because you can't believe that what you say isn't taken at face value, and that frustrates you.:sorry

Don't you know that people, myself included have learned a lot from reading your thoughts on different situations? Think about what i'm saying and eat some pasta.

Dr. Bill

Click to expand...

I like reading what each of you has to say and appreciate the time you guys take to explain yourselves.

So thank you both.

stevelomako said:

I like reading what each of you has to say and appreciate the time you guys take to explain yourselves.

So thank you both.

Click to expand...

Steve, please don't encourage them...One of them (or both) will think they are RIGHT !!

PS..If you want the straight scoop on the 'niche game'...Just pm ME !

Bankin' Mc Duck...Future Bank Pool HOF inductee !!!

fred bentivegna said:

.. Does everybody want to try and learn something here, or would ya'll rather be amused by "Hocker" (Yiddish word, stop hocking mir im chinick) or by the consternation between myself and Dr Bill? I really need to know.

Beard

Click to expand...

NO, I would like to try to learn from The Beard. If there was ONE person I could choose to NOT get mad and leave, it would be The Beard for sure. Most people are reluctant to say anything. You know how it is. It's like if you are at a wonderful party and having a good time, and a guy gets into it with his girlfriend or even his pal. Well you are hesitant to say anything because before you know it, they both are mad at YOU for trying to intervene. One thing I have been wondering about for awhile. Did your wife really have to stash chocolate cake over at Arties place so that you wouldn't od on it? That sounds like a ghost story. No pun intended

wincardona said:

Fred, it appears to me that the Hacker like the Duck gets off by busting your balls. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of the games we play on the table, and everything to do with entertainment, for them.
I don't get off on busting balls, that's not me. I'm all about teaching people to play better, and if we're explaining our view points and they aren't in agreement, that doesn't mean that neither you nor me are right or wrong, because we both could be right or wrong. (i'm betting on right) Yes whenever we disagree on a shot, there are people that like your way, as many that may like my way of thinking. But in no way should you feel helpless when you and I debate, if anything you should feel good about the healthy debate. You seem to me that your very upset because you can't believe that what you say isn't taken at face value, and that frustrates you.:sorry

Don't you know that people, myself included have learned a lot from reading your thoughts on different situations? Think about what i'm saying and eat some pasta.

Dr. Bill

Click to expand...

freddy there are golden nuggets in billy's post
alot of the readers DO APPRECIATE AND LEARN FROM YOU
the discussions also shows us that at the highest level there still is a whats best for me( or what am i most comfortable) angle to the "best shot"
winning one pocket and shots moves and strategies showed that "the experts" often disagreed on the best shot
dont get sucked in to negative energy
ignore hacker and the duck
jmho
icbw

------------

fred bentivegna said:

.. Does everybody want to try and learn something here, or would ya'll rather be amused by "Hocker" (Yiddish word, stop hocking mir im chinick) or by the consternation between myself and Dr Bill? I really need to know.

Beard

Click to expand...

Ok Freddy i will lighten up on you. Just to let you know Freddy, if i didnt like you i wouldnt talk to or needle you. You would get zero attention from me... I do have to give you some constructive criticism though and i hope you can take it. Your knowledge is really good and i can appreciate what it took to dedicate your whole life to this game, but as far as you being an instructor you really have to work on your bedside manner. You take so much offense if anyone disagrees with you. You act like the people from Chicago are the only people who know how to move. 20 or 30 years ago you may have been able to think people from Chicago could outmove the rest of the people, but with technology, accustats, Youtube, live streaming of matches. Times have changed. When people disagree with your shot, i have never seen you take a step back and listen to what they are saying and maybe change your mind. Not you, if someone disagrees with you your defenses go up and you get mad and stick to your shot no matter what. There is a saying.... the dumbest man in the world is the man with all the answers!! think about it Freddy. I have learned some things about both games since i have joined as a member by listening to guys like you, Billy, SJD, etc. You make it real hard to give you a compliment though when you say that your the best mover on earth playing bank pool.. you come off as an arrogant asshole when you say that. When i say things im joking about it, you are dead serious. Just take a few minutes and go watch Michael Jordans Hall of Fame speech. Everyone on the planet knows he was the greatest player ever. They announced him into the Hall of Fame as the greatest player and yet he spent the whole time taking all the credit for everything and bragging. It was the worst Hall of Fame speech in any sport ever. He is my favorite athlete of alltime, yet that speech still makes me sick to my stomache... think about it

The best part about this site (for a banger like myself) is when the top players have DIFFERENT views on what they would do in a certain situation. I thoroughly enjoy reading WHY the better players would do this or that.

When the best banker in the world likes one shot and when one of the great movers/thinkers likes doing something else.... well there's a lot of good info to pick up. Nobody's pissing in the wind, that's for sure.

onepockethacker said:

Ok Freddy i will lighten up on you. Just to let you know Freddy, if i didnt like you i wouldnt talk to or needle you. You would get zero attention from me... I do have to give you some constructive criticism though and i hope you can take it. Your knowledge is really good and i can appreciate what it took to dedicate your whole life to this game, but as far as you being an instructor you really have to work on your bedside manner. You take so much offense if anyone disagrees with you. You act like the people from Chicago are the only people who know how to move. 20 or 30 years ago you may have been able to think people from Chicago could outmove the rest of the people, but with technology, accustats, Youtube, live streaming of matches. Times have changed. When people disagree with your shot, i have never seen you take a step back and listen to what they are saying and maybe change your mind. Not you, if someone disagrees with you your defenses go up and you get mad and stick to your shot no matter what. There is a saying.... the dumbest man in the world is the man with all the answers!! think about it Freddy. I have learned some things about both games since i have joined as a member by listening to guys like you, Billy, SJD, etc. You make it real hard to give you a compliment though when you say that your the best mover on earth playing bank pool.. you come off as an arrogant asshole when you say that. When i say things im joking about it, you are dead serious. Just take a few minutes and go watch Michael Jordans Hall of Fame speech. Everyone on the planet knows he was the greatest player ever. They announced him into the Hall of Fame as the greatest player and yet he spent the whole time taking all the credit for everything and bragging. It was the worst Hall of Fame speech in any sport ever. He is my favorite athlete of alltime, yet that speech still makes me sick to my stomache... think about it

Click to expand...

nice post
(note smiley face...)

A Beard point of view

A Beard point of view

Once again, for the umpteenth time I am going to attempt to present my side of it. I spend about 50% of my time on the forum doing this exact same thing. It is a waste of valuable time to say the least.

First off, I will not put up with anybody criticizing me or my ideas as being old fashioned, "20 or 30 years out of date," nitty, cowardly, etc. Let us not forget I go to DCC every year and have spent a lot of time in the booth observing the recent crop of champions. What the players of today know and do, is no mystery to me.

You can put my shit in a time capsule and use it in the year 3000. What is never going to change or become "new era" is shooting at 9 footers instead of 3 footers. If I cant get that point established than we have nowhere to go.

I get frustrated with John B, the world's best straight back shooter, when he continues to suggest that ya'll do the same. I think John is overlooking the fact that the majority of the folks on this site are shortstops and below. People he can play banks 8 to 5 and worse. I believe we would all be better served if he was able to tell us how he makes those 9 footers rather than telling us to keep shooting them.

I dont want people that are trying to learn, thinking that you cant shut down a straight back shooter with solid moving and defense. Jesus put it best when he said, "Man cannot live by straight-back alone." The forum members are going to have a high rate of success leaving 9 footers to players that dont shoot like Jason Miller or John Brumback. I speak from experience in this area. If you want to watch one of the great straight backers of all time, Truman Hogue, getting strangled by defense, sweat the match he and I played in 1986 at the Billiard Cafe. (Its on my site somewhere)

Regarding the "arrogant asshole" that I come across as to the Hacker. Too f'n bad. I plead guilty to the arrogant charge, the asshole part is up for further conjecture. My claim to the world's best bank mover is a lot more realistic than his brag of not getting beat in 5 yrs. (Could that statement also be construed as "arrogant?") :lol When he said that, I didnt get upset. I took it as a challenge and suggested he could do something with one of my protege's, Chris Gentile. He refused that request. Maybe he should offer me the same sort of challenge for the next big tourn, and put forth his pick for world's best bank mover.

Finally, and contrary to his pleas of innocence, for the last 40 years Dr Bill has always enjoyed jerking me around.

Beard

With all that off my chest, I am basically cooled out and vitriol free, even with the Hocker.

fred bentivegna said:

Once again, for the umpteenth time I am going to attempt to present my side of it. I spend about 50% of my time on the forum doing this exact same thing. It is a waste of valuable time to say the least.

First off, I will not put up with anybody criticizing me or my ideas as being old fashioned, "20 or 30 years out of date," nitty, cowardly, etc. Let us not forget I go to DCC every year and have spent a lot of time in the booth observing the recent crop of champions. What the players of today know and do, is no mystery to me.

You can put my shit in a time capsule and use it in the year 3000. What is never going to change or become "new era" is shooting at 9 footers instead of 3 footers. If I cant get that point established than we have nowhere to go.

I get frustrated with John B, the world's best straight back shooter, when he continues to suggest that ya'll do the same. I think John is overlooking the fact that the majority of the folks on this site are shortstops and below. People he can play banks 8 to 5 and worse. I believe we would all be better served if he was able to tell us how he makes those 9 footers rather than telling us to keep shooting them.

I dont want people that are trying to learn, thinking that you cant shut down a straight back shooter with solid moving and defense. Jesus put it best when he said, "Man cannot live by straight-back alone." The forum members are going to have a high rate of success leaving 9 footers to players that dont shoot like Jason Miller or John Brumback. I speak from experience in this area. If you want to watch one of the great straight backers of all time, Truman Hogue, getting strangled by defense, sweat the match he and I played in 1986 at the Billiard Cafe. (Its on my site somewhere)

Regarding the "arrogant asshole" that I come across as to the Hacker. Too f'n bad. I plead guilty to the arrogant charge, the asshole part is up for further conjecture. My claim to the world's best bank mover is a lot more realistic than his brag of not getting beat in 5 yrs. (Could that statement also be construed as "arrogant?") :lol When he said that, I didnt get upset. I took it as a challenge and suggested he could do something with one of my protege's, Chris Gentile. He refused that request. Maybe he should offer me the same sort of challenge for the next big tourn, and put forth his pick for world's best bank mover.

Finally, and contrary to his pleas of innocence, for the last 40 years Dr Bill has always enjoyed jerking me around.

Beard

With all that off my chest, I am basically cooled out and vitriol free, even with the Hocker.

Click to expand...

well at least for the moment there is peace and goodwill in the world
lets hope it stays that way

Wow ! Freddy, what a mover you are. You've got them all begging you not to leave.:lol:heh
Rod.
P.S. You were never going anywhere.

fred bentivegna said:

Once again, for the umpteenth time I am going to attempt to present my side of it. I spend about 50% of my time on the forum doing this exact same thing. It is a waste of valuable time to say the least. The squeeky wheel gets the grease.:sorry That's the way the games played, get use to it.

First off, I will not put up with anybody criticizing me or my ideas as being old fashioned, "20 or 30 years out of date," nitty, cowardly, etc. Let us not forget I go to DCC every year and have spent a lot of time in the booth observing the recent crop of champions. What the players of today know and do, is no mystery to me. It is easy for people to criticize presumptuous people, especially if their smart, get use to it.

You can put my shit in a time capsule and use it in the year 3000. What is never going to change or become "new era" is shooting at 9 footers instead of 3 footers. If I cant get that point established than we have nowhere to go. Very presumptuous statement to make, while stating the obvious. There's reasons why people shoot 9 footers and leave 3 footers, which I won't go into.

I get frustrated with John B, the world's best straight back shooter, when he continues to suggest that ya'll do the same. I think John is overlooking the fact that the majority of the folks on this site are shortstops and below. People he can play banks 8 to 5 and worse. I believe we would all be better served if he was able to tell us how he makes those 9 footers rather than telling us to keep shooting them. Now that I will agree with you on. I would like to learn how to make a lot of shots, i'll PM John.

I dont want people that are trying to learn, thinking that you cant shut down a straight back shooter with solid moving and defense. Jesus put it best when he said, "Man cannot live by straight-back alone." The forum members are going to have a high rate of success leaving 9 footers to players that dont shoot like Jason Miller or John Brumback. I speak from experience in this area. If you want to watch one of the great straight backers of all time, Truman Hogue, getting strangled by defense, sweat the match he and I played in 1986 at the Billiard Cafe. (Its on my site somewhere) Again you have a valid point, yes you can slow down the best players with solid moving, and defense.

Regarding the "arrogant asshole" that I come across as to the Hacker. Too f'n bad. I plead guilty to the arrogant charge, the asshole part is up for further conjecture. My claim to the world's best bank mover is a lot more realistic than his brag of not getting beat in 5 yrs. (Could that statement also be construed as "arrogant?") When he said that, I didnt get upset. I took it as a challenge and suggested he could do something with one of my protege's, Chris Gentile. He refused that request. Maybe he should offer me the same sort of challenge for the next big tourn, and put forth his pick for world's best bank mover. You're on a roll, right again. And you're not an asshole, maybe sometimes but shouldn't be considered one.

Finally, and contrary to his pleas of innocence, for the last 40 years Dr Bill has always enjoyed jerking me around. What comes around, goes around.

Beard

With all that off my chest, I am basically cooled out and vitriol free, even with the Hocker. The time is 10:40 am. Central time March 18th.

Click to expand...

Yes you have put in over 50 years in the trenches, and imo you are one of the most knowledgeable players in the world, and along with that you're one of the most well liked players in the last 50 years along with being the most stubborn player that I personally know.:sorry But that stubborn part can be remedied, just start deferring a little more to what I say, that would be good for openers.

Oh, by the way, you're putting too much garlic in your sauce.

Dr. Bill< Your favorite doctor.

Shhhh...

Shhhh...

androd said:

Wow ! Freddy, what a mover you are. You've got them all begging you not to leave.:lol:heh
Rod.
P.S. You were never going anywhere.

Click to expand...

...quiet please. Keep that under you hat.

Beard

Presumptuous?

Presumptuous?

You can put my shit in a time capsule and use it in the year 3000. What is never going to change or become "new era" is shooting at 9 footers instead of 3 footers. If I cant get that point established than we have nowhere to go. Very presumptuous statement to make, while stating the obvious. There's reasons why people shoot 9 footers and leave 3 footers, which I won't go into.

wincardona said:

Yes you have put in over 50 years in the trenches, and imo you are one of the most knowledgeable players in the world, and along with that you're one of the most well liked players in the last 50 years along with being the most stubborn player that I personally know.:sorry (You would have a tough time convincing people that I had a harder head than you or Artie, please!) But that stubborn part can be remedied, just start deferring a little more to what I say, that would be good for openers.

Oh, by the way, you're putting too much garlic in your sauce.

Dr. Bill< Your favorite doctor.

Click to expand...

You are being presumptuous if you are inferring that I dont think that there are sometimes reasons when someone should shoot at a 9 footer even if they are leaving a 3 footer.
I have an offensive situational strategy that goes well beyond what most people think offensive strategy should be. I just dont ever get much chance to present it. I always believe that you should first understand what is bad before you make a determination as to what is good.
As far as I am concerned It still hasnt yet been firmly established that there is any advantage to shooting at shots that have less distance to travel.

Beard

I am done here. Now it is time to stir my Sunday sauce made with Lamb bones. It makes a sauce richer than Donald Trump.