Ranking one pocket players

petie · Jul 13, 2015

John Brumback said:
Petie,Bank players push their shots?? That is utter BS for a lack of better words. A hit is a hit. You can only hit the cue ball one time.Doesn't really matter what you do before you hit the cue ball one time .That might be why it went in one ear and out the other John B.

By 'push' I mean their whole stroke is the forward part of the stroke (compared to nine ballers) and have little if any backstroke. I was actually asking Freddie because this was his way of stroking. I didn't mean 'push' in the sense of a foul. Catching me uttering utter bull shit is no great trick. Get in line. See if I give you any more free advertisement.

John Brumback · Jul 13, 2015

petie said:
By 'push' I mean their whole stroke is the forward part of the stroke (compared to nine ballers) and have little if any backstroke. I was actually asking Freddie because this was his way of stroking. I didn't mean 'push' in the sense of a foul. Catching me uttering utter bull shit is no great trick. Get in line. See if I give you any more free advertisement.

:sorry Petie,I meant no disrespect to you. I knew you didn't mean a push shot to where you ( or I ) foul the cue ball. I just thought you meant that us bank players had some kind of different or funny stroke,that's all. My bad. John B.

bstroud · Jul 13, 2015

Lou,

The best players will rise to the top no matter what equipment they play on.

It doesn't bother me if a guy hits the rail and still makes the ball. I have the same option.

There were always tight pocket tables. When I was 16 I was gambling on a 4X8 that you positively could not touch a rail and make the ball. It took some adjustment but I won my first 500 and 1000 dollar bill on that table.

The biggest change in equipment is putting Billiard cloth on Pool tables. You don't need the same stroke as before. As long as you can play position you can bunt out. This cloth gives the poorer player a chance to win that they would not have on slow nappy cloth.

Bill S.

bstroud · Jul 13, 2015

John Brumback said:
:sorry Petie,I meant no disrespect to you. I knew you didn't mean a push shot to where you ( or I ) foul the cue ball. I just thought you meant that us bank players had some kind of different or funny stroke,that's all. My bad. John B.

John,

I think what Taylor was talking about "the push shot" is what I call the inert cue ball. A cue ball sliding with no English instead of rolling.

Bill S.

lfigueroa · Jul 13, 2015

bstroud said:
Lou,

The best players will rise to the top no matter what equipment they play on.

It doesn't bother me if a guy hits the rail and still makes the ball. I have the same option.

There were always tight pocket tables. When I was 16 I was gambling on a 4X8 that you positively could not touch a rail and make the ball. It took some adjustment but I won my first 500 and 1000 dollar bill on that table.

The biggest change in equipment is putting Billiard cloth on Pool tables. You don't need the same stroke as before. As long as you can play position you can bunt out. This cloth gives the poorer player a chance to win that they would not have on slow nappy cloth.

Bill S.

Bill, yes. The best players will rise to the top. However, when the equipment is too forgiving it is difficult to discern who the best players are.

Many look good on loose tables.

Lou Figueroa

John Brumback · Jul 13, 2015

bstroud said:
John,

I think what Taylor was talking about "the push shot" is what I call the inert cue ball. A cue ball sliding with no English instead of rolling.

Bill S.

Oh, you mean the stun shot,"stun the cue ball" least that's what I call it. Yeah I kinda like that shot too. I use it every chance I get:lol John B.

PS: psst Bill,that's one of Taylor's and mine's trick to make the pocket play bigger....

Jeff sparks · Jul 14, 2015

lfigueroa said:
Bill, yes. The best players will rise to the top. However, when the equipment is too forgiving it is difficult to discern who the best players are.

Many look good on loose tables.

Lou Figueroa

Why not play all pool games on 6 x 12 snooker tables using regular size pool balls?
I'll take Alex.

petie · Jul 14, 2015

John Brumback said:
:sorry Petie,I meant no disrespect to you. I knew you didn't mean a push shot to where you ( or I ) foul the cue ball. I just thought you meant that us bank players had some kind of different or funny stroke,that's all. My bad. John B.

I did. My bad, I guess.

petie · Jul 14, 2015

bstroud said:
John,

I think what Taylor was talking about "the push shot" is what I call the inert cue ball. A cue ball sliding with no English instead of rolling.

Bill S.

John Brumback said:
Oh, you mean the stun shot,"stun the cue ball" least that's what I call it. Yeah I kinda like that shot too. I use it every chance I get:lol John B.

PS: psst Bill,that's one of Taylor's and mine's trick to make the pocket play bigger....

Now this is a gem of a revelation and worth way more than the price of admission imo.

petie · Jul 14, 2015

Jeff sparks said:
Why not play all pool games on 6 x 12 snooker tables using regular size pool balls?
I'll take Alex.

I've heard that Don Willis could make wing shots on a 6 x 12 Snooker table using Billiard balls.

bstroud · Jul 14, 2015

John Brumback said:
Oh, you mean the stun shot,"stun the cue ball" least that's what I call it. Yeah I kinda like that shot too. I use it every chance I get:lol John B.

PS: psst Bill,that's one of Taylor's and mine's trick to make the pocket play bigger....

John,

I use it too.
Just wish I lived where there were more bank pool players. I think full rack is the best game of all.

Bill S.

John Brumback · Jul 14, 2015

bstroud said:
John,

I use it too.
Just wish I lived where there were more bank pool players. I think full rack is the best game of all.

Bill S.

Well Bill,you had me confused when you said.."he had a way to make the pockets bigger" I took that to mean you didn't know how he was doing it.

I was scratching my head and wondering how you didn't catch on,or that maybe he would have told you what he was doing to make the pockets play bigger.

Do you remember his balls looking like they were bending when they were on the way to the pocket and did he use a lot of top english also? Thanks for the insight into the "masters" game. I've talked at length about Taylor with Mike James.He seems to know a lot about the man too.

A lot of top players have told me that banks is the best game. I don'know why they don't play it more. John B.

petie · Jul 14, 2015

John Brumback said:
Well Bill,you had me confused when you said.."he had a way to make the pockets bigger" I took that to mean you didn't know how he was doing it.

I was scratching my head and wondering how you didn't catch on,or that maybe he would have told you what he was doing to make the pockets play bigger.

Do you remember his balls looking like they were bending when they were on the way to the pocket and did he use a lot of top english also? Thanks for the insight into the "masters" game. I've talked at length about Taylor with Mike James.He seems to know a lot about the man too.

A lot of top players have told me that banks is the best game. I don'know why they don't play it more. John B.

Because you're out there? Freddie called you a 'Freak of Nature.' He meant it as a compliment as it referred to how well you bank. Have you played Justin Hall and Skyler? What do you think of their games.

Cloidius · Jul 14, 2015

And...

And...

bstroud said:
John,

I think what Taylor was talking about "the push shot" is what I call the inert cue ball. A cue ball sliding with no English instead of rolling.

Bill S.

I also think this is what Bugs was stressing in his video where nearly every shot was 'full in the face.'

Clyde

John Brumback · Jul 14, 2015

petie said:
Because you're out there? Freddie called you a 'Freak of Nature.' He meant it as a compliment as it referred to how well you bank. Have you played Justin Hall and Skyler? What do you think of their games.

Thanks Petie for the words from Fred. I have only played them in tourneys. Skyler beat me in the tourney at Tunica a couple years ago. I have wins over Justin in 2 or 3 bank matches and one in the 9ball. They play top notch short rack banks.

If they want to beat me playing bank for the $ it's going to have to be full rack banks.Not this 9ball crap shoot:lol John B.

I wonder if they would want to bet all their $ playing short rack onepocket? :lol

LSJohn · Jul 14, 2015

John Brumback said:
Thanks Petie for the words from Fred. I have only played them in tourneys. Skyler beat me in the tourney at Tunica a couple years ago. I have wins over Justin in 2 or 3 bank matches and one in the 9ball. They play top notch short rack banks.

If they want to beat me playing bank for the $ it's going to have to be full rack banks.Not this 9ball crap shoot:lol John B.

I wonder if they would want to bet all their $ playing short rack onepocket? :lol

They both play awful good for their ages, but you playin' either one of them full-rack 1P would be a helluva matchup. I'd just want a piece of the table time.

bstroud · Jul 14, 2015

John Brumback said:
Well Bill,you had me confused when you said.."he had a way to make the pockets bigger" I took that to mean you didn't know how he was doing it.

I was scratching my head and wondering how you didn't catch on,or that maybe he would have told you what he was doing to make the pockets play bigger.

Do you remember his balls looking like they were bending when they were on the way to the pocket and did he use a lot of top english also? Thanks for the insight into the "masters" game. I've talked at length about Taylor with Mike James.He seems to know a lot about the man too.

A lot of top players have told me that banks is the best game. I don'know why they don't play it more. John B.

John,

Taylor taught me to use center of the cue ball to bank. That included high and low depending on the bank.

He had a standard speed that he hit most banks and it was pretty fast. It was hard to see if the banks were actually bending.

What I did notice frequently was that if a bank hit the rail near the pocket his banks seemed to scurry in the pocket and mine didn't.

I think now that it was the fact that he "held" most banks with sliding cue ball and the spin created helped the ball go in the pocket. Not sure if this technique would work on Diamonds. I know when I miss a ball on a Diamond it is either I hit the inside rail or I hit the pocket facing at too straight an angle and too much speed.

I think most of the problems with Diamonds is due to the Billiard cloth.

I would like to see the next Bank tournament played with a nappy cloth. Then you could tell the Bank players from the rest.

He was amazing to watch practicing Bank. He would just throw out 8 balls and just bank them all. He almost never missed a bank.

If you are interested next time I see you I will show you a couple of the shots he showed to me. Some twist banks and shrink the cue ball. I still practice them so I don't forget how to hit them.

He and Buggs banked a lot the same except Buggs set up with high reverse and them hit center ball. Taylor just aimed with center ball and that is what he hit. More like Donnie Anderson. Buggs was more like Truman.

Bill S.

NH Steve · Jul 14, 2015

lfigueroa said:
Just for the shake of redundancy: there are more guys playing 1pocket now and whereas the game used to be something of a "dark art," now everyone, thanks to books like WOP and Accu-Stats and all the streams and the big tourneys knows how to play 1pocket now. E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E.

So, since the universe of 1pocket players is now way larger, the general level of play has improved despite tougher tables now becoming the norm rather than being an exception.

None of the old-time 1pocket players would want to play today's best 1pocket practitioners on todays equipment. It would not be close.

And to answer your questions about balls being run, I don't recall, inspite of having a pretty decent pool library, hanging around pool rooms for almost 50 years, and listening to the stories of countless old-time 1pocket players telling their tales from the Accu-Stats booth *anyone* ever mentioning 1pocket ball running contests back in the day. Ever. Maybe it was done occasionally as a prop bet but it wasn't done like it was at the DCC with hundreds of guys going at it.

Those 1pocket high run contests happened at the Derby for many years and I personally watched much of it and occasionally scored some of it. And, as guys got used to doing it they got better at it in spite of the equipment. Today's guys, on JC equipment, might have busted 100.

Lou Figueroa

The DCC One Pocket ball-running challenge has not had anywhere near "hundreds" of guys going at it. I watched a bunch of it and helped Jay Helfert some of the years it ran. I would guess more like 30 or so going at it is more like it -- but some damn good players, like Pagulayan, Reyes, Schmidt, Deuel & Gabe Owen. Jay would have a good idea of what was typical. The highest score was Gabe Owen, with a total of 60 balls in five tries (starting with a full rack each of the 5 tries), so Gabe averaged 10 balls per rack.

In some of my interviews with old-timers about Johnston City, I was told that there was indeed a proposition of running balls into one pocket without a miss that had at least a run of popularity at JC. It was run by Brier Spivey. He would apparently set a line for each player based on how he assessed that player, and then offer some odds on the money that they would not get there. The highest line he set at that time was actually for Squirrel, at something like 23, and as I heard it, he had to shut Squirrel off because he was running balls too well, lol. That's the way I remember it being described without going through my notes or audio anyway. I think another quirk Spivey put in it was some kind of chance drawing that gave the contestant a random extra count, but I do not know how he did that. It was an extra enticement to get players to give it a try.

Jimmy B · Jul 14, 2015

NH Steve said:
Well yours was definitely a flip and grossly inaccurate comment and I call BS on you and if you stand by that post it says a lot about you -- apparently facts don't really matter as long as you feel like you are making a point, lol.

If I had time I could pull up a list of JC players. I am not so sure Keith was far off saying 70 could. That would be 70 who like you, could run 100. JC ran 12 years. That is a lot of pretty good players that came through. I might actually lean toward the OP in terms of over under as to the number of JC players that had a career high run over 100.

In any case, in terms of BS, you went a whole lot farther than he did. Six of the greatest of all time "perhaps" could have. Yeah, perhaps

I also call BS on your comment that over the years at DCC "hundreds" tried the one pocket challenge too, although it does not offend me as much as your ridiculous comment about 6 players perhaps could run a hundred (you did NOT say those six could of course run multiple 100s -- if you had your comment would have been more palatable).

At DCC there might have been hundreds of attempts over the years because multiple attempts were allowed per player, but I bet there were not hundreds of different players that entered. "100s" would begin at least at more than 200 right? I doubt it but if you want to ask Jay, go ahead. It did not actually run that many years even. I am guessing about 5 years. I would say more accurate would be a core of about 30 did it multiple years, and maybe 10 or 20 additional stray players each year. That doesn't add up to 200 Lou.

I know what you're saying. Example... I had Burton on my mind when I saw your post. I remember asking Eddie if he played straight pool. He said hell no, I don't like it at all. I said well, you must have played a little during the Hustler movie hubbub. He said just a tad. I said what was your high? He thought a moment, then said he remembered doing 220 one time. We were alone so I know he wasn't just bragging. Wouldn't have been no point in it...

keoneyo · Jul 15, 2015

Wayne said:
Don't let Lou get to you. He has never been known to let facts get in his way and he almost always finds a way to twist what he wrote to make it seem like what he said made sense.

At any rate the old time great players would probably all run a 100 + balls on todays equipment. I basically suck at straight pool because I have hardly ever played it and I have run 100 balls on tough equipment. Lou has run 100 balls on not so tough equipment and he basically sucks at straight pool also. So imagine how easy it would be for a great ball pocketer from the past to run 100 on todays equipment.

Wayne

I saw you run a 100 on a table Mike Massey quit on trying to play 50 no count. It was an Ernesto Dominguez shimmed pocket special. Mike stopped trying after he ran 30 a couple of times.

Ranking one pocket players

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