Efren/shane 2012 dcc #1

Scrzbill said:

I agree that Efrens game wasn't at the top. Especially after he lost the first game after being up 7-0. I was looking forward to a good five game set but it was over fairly quickly. One thing I saw Efren do was to try his superman shots when he was only shooting like a mortal one pocket champion. Shane made some great shots but played basic safety first, wait for your opponents mistake one pocket.

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wincardona said:

Well we finally agree on something, that is kicking at the 4 ball imo would of been a better shot then pocketing the 15 ball. But I think Shane can give you 10 to 7, that is unless you've been taking lessons from the Beard. But of course i've been wrong before, maybe you play better than I think. Well maybe not, I mean you're not serious about soft kicking the 4 ball from this position, are you? What do you think Fred?

Dr. Bill

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fred bentivegna said:

Kicking the 4 ball. Well, it aint the worst shot in the world. The Ghost actually is a very accomplished kicker and unless he fainted dead away, I believe he -- not me -- could execute that kick and either make it, or leave it safe.

Depending on how I felt, and playing a top player like Shane, I might go for it myself. ( That's when you don't want to shoot those types of shots, against top players, especially in situations like this one) It looks to be sooo close to the pocket.

Beard

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wincardona said:

Well we finally agree on something, that is kicking at the 4 ball imo would of been a better shot then pocketing the 15 ball. But I think Shane can give you 10 to 7, that is unless you've been taking lessons from the Beard. But of course i've been wrong before, maybe you play better than I think. Well maybe not, I mean you're not serious about soft kicking the 4 ball from this position, are you? What do you think Fred?

Dr. Bill

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wincardona said:

Sorry Fred but kicking at the 4 ball is competing against the advice of three friends that I have permanently stashed in my head. The first friend said that the score isn't right for the shot, then the other friend said that the 4 ball is too far off the cushion to feel comfortable shooting such a shot in such a dominate position, and then my other friend said that, stop you have many other options that will support your position , not only with the score but on how the balls are positioned, no need to be spectacular, what's your hurry? Actually I had a couple more friends that I listen to too, but I was convinced just by listening to the first three.

Dr. Bill

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lll said:

ive been alittle confused at times regarding kicking at the 4 ball
not always sure which shooter the poster is referring to

regarding SHANE shooting it instead of the 15 ball
how exactly should he have kicked at it
firm and stick /soft and roll on to it
its not clear to me exactly how you all think it should be done ( The way I would kick would be with a medium hard speed, contacting the side rail then the bottom rail in a attempt to pocket the ball. Being down 7 to 0 the aggressive approach to this option is my choice.)


regarding EFREN shooting it we have freddy and the ghost considering it
and Dr. Bill and his friends advising against it

Dr. Bill maybe you or anyone else want to elucidate on the other options for EFREN

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wincardona said:

So much for the ones that thought that the 1 ball return option should of precluded Reyes from choosing the 15 ball option. Shanes answer to Reyes choice suggest to me that Reyes choice was a viable one, whatever happens from here should not be attributable to the 15 ball Reyes opted to shoot. But I will concede that by banking the 4 ball toward the 1 ball (Tylers option) would of been a better choice in terms of a lock down move. Providing the 3-9 ball bank combo wasn't on.

In this particular lay out it's difficult to determine what actually is available. Can Reyes see the 4 ball? Does the angle he's left with give him the ability to cut the 1 ball and draw the cue ball back twice cross table for a shot to win with a built in safety? Does he have the ability to shave the 1 ball and position the cue ball close to the 5 ball? Also the 15 ball is now a possible carom off the 8 ball for Shane, something Reyes needs to be concerned with. If that's an option for Shane then Reyes needs to defend against it. I'm guessing that Reyes cuts at the 1 ball and misses it, just looks like the type of a shot that Reyes would shoot. He's close enough to the 1 ball to get a good look at it, and as well as he cuts balls he shouldn't have much problems convincing himself to go for it.

But I do remember remembering that Reyes played very poorly in this match, both shooting and moving.

Dr. Bill

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wincardona said:

Larry, I posted this in my post#73, this should answer your last question.

In this particular lay out it's difficult to determine what actually is available. Can Reyes see the 4 ball? Does the angle he's left with give him the ability to cut the 1 ball and draw the cue ball back twice cross table for a shot to win with a built in safety? Does he have the ability to shave the 1 ball and position the cue ball close to the 5 ball? Also the 15 ball is now a possible carom off the 8 ball for Shane, something Reyes needs to be concerned with. If that's an option for Shane then Reyes needs to defend against it. I'm guessing that Reyes cuts at the 1 ball and misses it, just looks like the type of a shot that Reyes would shoot. He's close enough to the 1 ball to get a good look at it, and as well as he cuts balls he shouldn't have much problems convincing himself to go for it.

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lll said:

lets start with SHANE first
if he hits it to make it and misses
is it
im down 7-0 im probably going to lose anyway
so ill go for the hail mary???

now for efren
im home and the dvd is at work
i dont think efren could see the four bur assuming he could what would you do with it??

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Cowboy Dennis said:

Efren didn't lose the 1st game after being up 7-0. You are the same guy who said Efren banked the 1 ball after Larry clearly wrote that Efren did not bank the 1 ball, right? What a moron.

Up yours you ignorant hillbilly.

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fred bentivegna said:

Kicking the 4 ball. Well, it aint the worst shot in the world. The Ghost actually is a very accomplished kicker and unless he fainted dead away, I believe he -- not me -- could execute that kick and either make it, or leave it safe.

Depending on how I felt, and playing a top player like Shane, I might go for it myself. It looks to be sooo close to the pocket.[/B]

Beard

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wincardona said:

Sorry Fred but kicking at the 4 ball is competing against the advice of three friends that I have permanently stashed in my head.

Dr. Bill

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One Pocket Ghost said:

Was at the poolroom today and tried the kick shot 4 times with the 4ball 1/4" off the rail - that's the distance off the rail that I said I would need to choose it as my shot choice....I shot it cold no practice shots, no testing of how the table/rails were playing...I made it 3 out of 4 tries - made the first, second, and fourth tries - hung it on the third try...

Billy, when you come to Chicago, I would be more than happy to shoot it as a prop bet with your "three friends" who advise against the - shot please ask them to send plenty of $$$ along with you - Freddy and I will have the window wide open......:heh

- Ghst

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wincardona said:

There you go again, twisting and dodging the question of ..would you or would you not shoot the kick in the situation that was shown in the thread? Not the way you want to set it up, but the way it presents itself? The 4 ball is at least 1" to 1-1/4" of the bottom rail, not 1/4" off the bottom rail.

And let me give you some free advice

Dr. Bill

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One Pocket Ghost said:

[/SIZE]


I'm not twisting and dodging I already clearly stated in both of my previous posts that I would only shoot the kick if it was 1/4" off the rail (I'd go up to 3/8" off the rail max. )....so let me translate that for you - that means that NO, I would not kick at a ball that is 1" to 1-1/4" of the bottom rail....that said, in the Efren situation thread, that 4ball doesn't look to me to be anywhere near as far off the rail as you're saying.

And as for you offering me free advice...the only free advice that I can think of that I would take from you is...

If you advised me not to teach/show you any moves in One Pocket because you might then use them against me...:heh....

- Ghost

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One Pocket Ghost said:

[/SIZE]


I'm not twisting and dodging I already clearly stated in both of my previous posts that I would only shoot the kick if it was 1/4" off the rail (I'd go up to 3/8" off the rail max. )....so let me translate that for you - that means that NO, I would not kick at a ball that is 1" to 1-1/4" of the bottom rail....that said, in the Efren situation thread, that 4ball doesn't look to me to be anywhere near as far off the rail as you're saying.

And as for you offering me free advice...the only free advice that I can think of that I would take from you is...

If you advised me not to teach/show you any moves in One Pocket because you might then use them against me...:heh....

- Ghost

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wincardona said:

Correct me if i'm wrong. If you go to post#70 you will clearly see that the 4 ball is 1-1/4" off the rail. I based this off of the track line the ball makes adjacent to the rails. That's the worn part of the cloth adjacent to every rail. If you notice the line is parallel to the out side of the 4 ball, which makes me believe it's 1-1/4" from the rail.

Dr. Bill

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One Pocket Ghost said:

Simon, the terrible result was just secondary - the choice of shooting that shot was the first mistake....and if Shane froze the cueball to the 1ball, that would have meant nothing/gained nothing anyway - Efren would have just slid off one side or another of the 1ball for a simple safety.

- Ghost

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