Use Of Speed On Long Table Banks

Hi, my name is Keith and i play one pocket all the time. I have a bank question and I would apprecite if the good bankers could help me out here. Lets say the cue ball and object ball are both on the bottom end of the table and its a fairly simple bank up and back down the table. lets make it even clearer a simple 1/2 ball hit with pocket speed will make this bank. But as we all know we need to position the cueball to different spot on the table for position for the next ball or to be sure if the bank misses that we dont sell out the game.
i find when as begin adding speed that the shot runs short and assume this is because of the speed itselfand collision induced spin the object ball picks up at contact. For this thread lets use 2 different speeds of SPEED 1 AND SPEED 2. and to clairify speed 2 is pretty fast but not WARP SPEED.
So my questions are how do you compensate for these shots? a thinner hit? outside spin? ECT. Thanks for your imput. Keith

sappo said:

Hi, my name is Keith and i play one pocket all the time. I have a bank question and I would apprecite if the good bankers could help me out here. Lets say the cue ball and object ball are both on the bottom end of the table and its a fairly simple bank up and back down the table. lets make it even clearer a simple 1/2 ball hit with pocket speed will make this bank. But as we all know we need to position the cueball to different spot on the table for position for the next ball or to be sure if the bank misses that we dont sell out the game.
i find when as begin adding speed that the shot runs short and assume this is because of the speed itselfand collision induced spin the object ball picks up at contact. For this thread lets use 2 different speeds of SPEED 1 AND SPEED 2. and to clairify speed 2 is pretty fast but not WARP SPEED.
So my questions are how do you compensate for these shots? a thinner hit? outside spin? ECT. Thanks for your imput. Keith

Click to expand...

Sappo, I aim at the spot and add a tip of English (half the width of my ferrell) from across the table.As I cross closer to my pocket, say across the middle diamond I tone down the amount of English. Close to your own pocket you need English, but very little. This is for speed 2 and middle ball English, not high or low.
Rod.
PS, Hope this makes sense as it works fairly well for me.

Sappo,

The way to bank is with the vertical center of the cue ball.

Practice your shot at different speeds using a stun cue ball.

The more speed, the shorter the angle the bank will take.

You will soon get a feel for the angle and the correct speed.

Bill Stroud

Thanks

Thanks

Rod and Bill thanks for the imput.

bstroud said:

Sappo,

The way to bank is with the vertical center of the cue ball.

Practice your shot at different speeds using a stun cue ball.

The more speed, the shorter the angle the bank will take.

You will soon get a feel for the angle and the correct speed.

Bill Stroud

Click to expand...

Bill,

I certainly hope that this isn't general all-around advice for all banks.

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis said:

Bill,

I certainly hope that this isn't general all-around advice for all banks.

Dennis

Click to expand...

Yeah Soon. After hitting 10,000 practice shots

sappo said:

Hi, my name is Keith and i play one pocket all the time. I have a bank question and I would apprecite if the good bankers could help me out here. Lets say the cue ball and object ball are both on the bottom end of the table and its a fairly simple bank up and back down the table. lets make it even clearer a simple 1/2 ball hit with pocket speed will make this bank. But as we all know we need to position the cueball to different spot on the table for position for the next ball or to be sure if the bank misses that we dont sell out the game.
i find when as begin adding speed that the shot runs short and assume this is because of the speed itselfand collision induced spin the object ball picks up at contact. For this thread lets use 2 different speeds of SPEED 1 AND SPEED 2. and to clairify speed 2 is pretty fast but not WARP SPEED.
So my questions are how do you compensate for these shots? a thinner hit? outside spin? ECT. Thanks for your imput. Keith

Click to expand...

I don't consider a half ball hit to be a simple bank if I have to send the cue ball the whole length of the table (i.e. straight back). Half ball is going to definitely send the cue ball somewhere, and like you say, you have to then start worrying about where the cue ball is going to end up. If this is in a game of One Pocket, or Banks, you have to be concerned about leaving a bank in case you miss, so it really gets sticky as to where the cue ball will end up. I don't see those as simple. For me, for a straight back to be simple, I'll be looking for a shot I can hit a little fuller.

...its all in the book...

...its all in the book...

sappo said:

Hi, my name is Keith and i play one pocket all the time. I have a bank question and I would apprecite if the good bankers could help me out here. Lets say the cue ball and object ball are both on the bottom end of the table and its a fairly simple bank up and back down the table. lets make it even clearer a simple 1/2 ball hit with pocket speed will make this bank. But as we all know we need to position the cueball to different spot on the table for position for the next ball or to be sure if the bank misses that we dont sell out the game.
i find when as begin adding speed that the shot runs short and assume this is because of the speed itselfand collision induced spin the object ball picks up at contact. For this thread lets use 2 different speeds of SPEED 1 AND SPEED 2. and to clairify speed 2 is pretty fast but not WARP SPEED.
So my questions are how do you compensate for these shots? a thinner hit? outside spin? ECT. Thanks for your imput. Keith

Click to expand...

This is a complicated question and it hasnt been presented clearly. What is SPEED 1? Is that pocket speed? If you broke the speeds up into 3 categories, as I did in my book, #1 easy, or pocket speed, #2 firm, or medium speed, and #3 hard or a warp-type speed, and you were making the 1/2 ball hit bank with #1 easy or pocket speed, hitting the ball in the same place with #2 medium or firm speed, you will shorten the bank approx. 1/4 diamond. A couple of the ways to pick up that 1/4 diamond and still hit the ob ball in the same place would be to add 1 tip of outside english. That is the simplest solution. You can pick up the missing 1/4 by using a full draw stroke also --along with various other adjustments.
In my book, Banking With The Beard, on pages 94 and 95, I present a chart of all the adjustment variations and their consequences in making a bank shot. Speed, cut angle, and english is all broken down mathematically.

Beard
I am glad some of these questions are being asked now. I got the feeling that some of the members were a little shy about asking those type of "scientific" questions, afraid of being ridiculed by some.

Speed

Speed

NH Steve said:

I don't consider a half ball hit to be a simple bank if I have to send the cue ball the whole length of the table (i.e. straight back). Half ball is going to definitely send the cue ball somewhere, and like you say, you have to then start worrying about where the cue ball is going to end up. If this is in a game of One Pocket, or Banks, you have to be concerned about leaving a bank in case you miss, so it really gets sticky as to where the cue ball will end up. I don't see those as simple. For me, for a straight back to be simple, I'll be looking for a shot I can hit a little fuller.

Click to expand...

steve all im trying to understand is what a banker does when he hits long banks at speeds above "pocket speed", how does he adjust for the effect the additional speed will have on the object ball. keith

fred bentivegna said:

This is a complicated question and it hasnt been presented clearly. What is SPEED 1? Is that pocket speed? If you broke the speeds up into 3 categories, as I did in my book, #1 easy, or pocket speed, #2 firm, or medium speed, and #3 hard or a warp-type speed, and you were making the 1/2 ball hit bank with #1 easy or pocket speed, hitting the ball in the same place with #2 medium or firm speed, you will shorten the bank approx. 1/4 diamond. A couple of the ways to pick up that 1/4 diamond and still hit the ob ball in the same place would be to add 1 tip of outside english. That is the simplest solution. You can pick up the missing 1/4 by using a full draw stroke also --along with various other adjustments.
In my book, Banking With The Beard, on pages 94 and 95, I present a chart of all the adjustment variations and their consequences in making a bank shot. Speed, cut angle, and english is all broken down mathematically.

Beard
I am glad some of these questions are being asked now. I got the feeling that some of the members were a little shy about asking those type of "scientific" questions, afraid of being ridiculed by some.

Click to expand...

Thanks Fred thats the type of info i was looking for. by the way i did say the original shot is at pocket speed and i was interested in 2 speeds above that which i termed speed1 and speed 2 but not warp speed. anyway thanks for your response. it good to see you involved and helping again.
ps: JUST FOR THE RECORD I AM NOT ON YOUR BEAT LIST!!! keith

One more ditty...

One more ditty...

sappo said:

Thanks Fred thats the type of info i was looking for. by the way i did say the original shot is at pocket speed and i was interested in 2 speeds above that which i termed speed1 and speed 2 but not warp speed. anyway thanks for your response. it good to see you involved and helping again.
ps: JUST FOR THE RECORD I AM NOT ON YOUR BEAT LIST!!! keith

Click to expand...

Back to my concept of only 3 speeds, easy, medium(your speed 1) and hard (your speed 2), on that 1/2 ball hit I said to add one tip of outside eng to pick up that short 1/4 diamond. Here is something few know and I am not going to try to explain it in 1 or 2 sentences, just try it and you will see that it works. If you are like Lou F. and can only use that which you understand completely I suggest you move to Chicago and pay me for lessons. Otherwise just do what I tell you and believe me when I tell you it works. Okay, 1/2 ball hit that goes when hit pocket speed. Medium, 1 tip outside, or draw, among other things. Hard speed,: no adjustment at all, just hit it HARD. Hard speed will kill the collision induced throw and wont shorten that 1/4 diamond but will instead zip into the pocket. Top bankers all know this to be, but they (most) cant explain the why, as I can. So what? If it works, it works. The balls dont ask for explanations after they score.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

Back to my concept of only 3 speeds, easy, medium(your speed 1) and hard (your speed 2), on that 1/2 ball hit I said to add one tip of outside eng to pick up that short 1/4 diamond. Here is something few know and I am not going to try to explain it in 1 or 2 sentences, just try it and you will see that it works. If you are like Lou F. and can only use that which you understand completely I suggest you move to Chicago and pay me for lessons. Otherwise just do what I tell you and believe me when I tell you it works. Okay, 1/2 ball hit that goes when hit pocket speed. Medium, 1 tip outside, or draw, among other things. Hard speed,: no adjustment at all, just hit it HARD. Hard speed will kill the collision induced throw and wont shorten that 1/4 diamond but will instead zip into the pocket. Top bankers all know this to be, but they (most) cant explain the why, as I can. So what? If it works, it works. The balls dont ask for explanations after they score.

Beard

Click to expand...

thanks freddy and welcome back
larry

Disclaimer: I am not a banker

At those distances the ball picks up a little top on the way TO the rail. You have to learn one important thing on straight backs - and that is at WHAT speed the side english on an object ball disappears on the way to the rail. Approaching THAT speed a TOUCH of outside helps...surpassing that speed about 1/2 tip, to cancel.

If they are coming short you are right at that speed, and learning how to make the ball at slightly more and less of that speed was my key.

Softer speed = play the angle. harder speed = play the spin. Which means what side of the pocket the shot lays to and what it takes(throw, hold, side, top hold) to send it right.


That said, straight-backs are the only reliable tool in my bank-pool arsenal, other than Mickey-Mouse banks!

sappo said:

steve all im trying to understand is what a banker does when he hits long banks at speeds above "pocket speed", how does he adjust for the effect the additional speed will have on the object ball. keith

Click to expand...

He's talking close...

He's talking close...

newfosgatesucks said:

Disclaimer: I am not a banker

At those distances the ball picks up a little top on the way TO the rail. You have to learn one important thing on straight backs - and that is at WHAT speed the side english on an object ball disappears on the way to the rail. Approaching THAT speed a TOUCH of outside helps...surpassing that speed about 1/2 tip, to cancel.

If they are coming short you are right at that speed, and learning how to make the ball at slightly more and less of that speed was my key.

Softer speed = play the angle. harder speed = play the spin. Which means what side of the pocket the shot lays to and what it takes(throw, hold, side, top hold) to send it right.


That said, straight-backs are the only reliable tool in my bank-pool arsenal, other than Mickey-Mouse banks!

Click to expand...

It was my understanding from the original poster, that he was talking about straight backs whereby the cue ball and the object ball were both close to the target rail, not far away from the cushion.

Beard

Wow- Guess he could have said how far up or how far back down! I took it the other way. (I can even misinterpret the word 'No')

sappo said:

Lets say the cue ball and object ball are both on the bottom end of the table and its a fairly simple bank up and back down the table.

Click to expand...

fred bentivegna said:

the cue ball and the object ball were both close to the target rail, not far away from the cushion.

Beard

Click to expand...

....depends....

....depends....

....if I'm reading you right.....I'd say thinner hit with inside English (or Spanish...depends where your from)...the harder you hit...the more inside you apply......but then again...I'm medicated right now....and I maybe playing 9 ball....and just think I'm playing banks.......by the way...the same thinking applies to One Pocket....cue ball control is Paramount....whatever it takes to make the bank and get "whitey" to where you want him....if defence is you goal....making the shot is secondary