8 Ball as Head Ball

Stanton Fountain

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NH Steve,

I saw you with your 1P jacket on at DCC, which was nice by the way, but I noticed that the 8 ball was the head ball in the rack. I am relatively new to
1P, but the person introduced me to 1P got all over me one day when I racked the 8 as the head ball. He told me that this was a gesture of disrespect to my opponent and that the 8 should be kept to the interior or back of the rack. The basic premise was that placing the 8 as the head ball was equivalent to a derisive comment as to you opponent's playing ability. Has anyone else heard this?
 

kyle

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It may have been more of a contrast issue than it being the eight, depending on what you racked in the second row it may of been hard for him to see the edge of the apex ball if they were darker balls like the four or seven, try to stay away from using similar colors (or 3 stripes) for the front three.
 

NH Steve

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Very observant of you! At least the eight isn't in the middle!
OnePocket.org member Cal Calloway created those shirts/windbreakers. They also have Strawberry's "One Pocket is an epidemic..." quotation. Strawberry himself told me Cal had contacted him for permission to use that, and I believe Cal sent one to Straw.

As a courtesy, generally I rack the one in front, and prefer getting racks like that. We didn't include anything about that in the rules -- should we?
 

fred bentivegna

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Its a shark move

Its a shark move

Stanton Fountain said:
NH Steve,

I saw you with your 1P jacket on at DCC, which was nice by the way, but I noticed that the 8 ball was the head ball in the rack. I am relatively new to
1P, but the person introduced me to 1P got all over me one day when I racked the 8 as the head ball. He told me that this was a gesture of disrespect to my opponent and that the 8 should be kept to the interior or back of the rack. The basic premise was that placing the 8 as the head ball was equivalent to a derisive comment as to you opponent's playing ability. Has anyone else heard this?

It's not derisive so much as a shark move. The worst case is to rack the two darkest balls the six and the eight in the first and second row making the split in the balls difficult to see. Its also has an aggravation factor when you rile up a little and have to tell your opponent to rerack. However, what is little known is that the best two ball combination to use, in so far as a favorable contrast is the yellow one ball in the first row and the black eight ball next to it in the second row. You should encourage your opponent to do that to you. Conversely, when I am racking I never give my opponent the one and the eight to break at. That in itself, is a very disguised shark move. You will always get away with that one.

the Beard
 

Terry Ardeno

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Washington, Pa
fred bentivegna said:
Conversely, when I am racking I never give my opponent the one and the eight to break at. That in itself, is a very disguised shark move. You will always get away with that one.

the Beard

I love hearing (and learning) these slick little things that the greats of our sport pass on to those who are interested. Believe me, when these gems are given out, I so look forward to implementing them. Thank you, Dr.Freddie.

By the way, I heard a poolplayer say once that there's a difference between cheating and breaking the rules....(???)
 

gulfportdoc

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Anything but a combination of the 6, 7, or 8 balls in front doesn't bother me. I think the contrast of a bright ball and dark ball is best, in any order. However, when using older sets of balls the 1-9 balls are usually more worn, so it's impossible to get a frozen rack. In that case I use contrasting striped balls, such as the 11-14. These are all good reasons in favor of playing rack-your-own.

Even in straight pool, the BCA rules dictate putting the 1 and 5 balls in the back corners to make it easier to see the aim point for the break shot.

As far as Terry's comment, I believe cheating is when a player takes some illegal action. However, keeping one's mouth shut couldn't be considered breaking the rules. For example Grady points out that not reminding your opponent that he needs to spot a ball from a previous scratch --when the other player would have a shot because of the vacant footspot-- can be advantageous, and not illegal...:cool:

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Gamesmanship

Gamesmanship

gulfportdoc said:
Anything but a combination of the 6, 7, or 8 balls in front doesn't bother me. I think the contrast of a bright ball and dark ball is best, in any order. However, when using older sets of balls the 1-9 balls are usually more worn, so it's impossible to get a frozen rack. In that case I use contrasting striped balls, such as the 11-14. These are all good reasons in favor of playing rack-your-own.

Even in straight pool, the BCA rules dictate putting the 1 and 5 balls in the back corners to make it easier to see the aim point for the break shot.

As far as Terry's comment, I believe cheating is when a player takes some illegal action. However, keeping one's mouth shut couldn't be considered breaking the rules. For example Grady points out that not reminding your opponent that he needs to spot a ball from a previous scratch --when the other player would have a shot because of the vacant footspot-- can be advantageous, and not illegal...:cool:

Doc

Its not called cheating but gamesmanship. To elaborate slightly on the Doc's suggestion of the 11 and 14, because in an older set the 1 thru 9 are slightly smaller due to 9 ball play, make sure the 3rd ball you use up front is also a stripe. You want to keep the front 3 all the same size if you want to freeze them. As far as volunteering valuable info to your opponent, only in 3 cushion billiards do guys call fouls on themselves. As a rule though, billiard players are usually fixed a little better financially than pool players. Calling a foul or waking up my opponent, was always well beyond my moral inclinations. Most of my pool life was spent with the rent due and the wolf at the door.

the Beard
 

suki

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Santa Cruz, Ca.
You are confusing

You are confusing

fred bentivegna said:
It's not derisive so much as a shark move. The worst case is to rack the two darkest balls the six and the eight in the first and second row making the split in the balls difficult to see. Its also has an aggravation factor when you rile up a little and have to tell your opponent to rerack. However, what is little known is that the best two ball combination to use, in so far as a favorable contrast is the yellow one ball in the first row and the black eight ball next to it in the second row. You should encourage your opponent to do that to you. Conversely, when I am racking I never give my opponent the one and the eight to break at. That in itself, is a very disguised shark move. You will always get away with that one.

the Beard

First you ask for the best rack but when you rack you never give them that. I dont think you could get away with that playing an opponent you already asked for the 1-8 rack, could you? As far as never giving a "stranger" that rack I consider unfair and not a gentleman. I like the the game to be equal between opponents even if I am gambling high or low. It is more fun that way.
Most people gambling at 1p know what is going on I would hope. So if I ask you to rack my way, do you. Do I have a right at any time to rack my own? I have a friend I play almost daily who is one of the best 1p players anywhere, it is just that he quit gambling years ago but he is so competitive he will always spot the 8 ball every chance he gets, i.e. after a foul cause he knows my eyes aren't like they used to be. We have friendly arguments all the time whether he can do that or if I can request another ball. He says no, just to shark me. If he makes 6 balls and scratches and one is the 8 he will spot the 8 without fail and we are never gambling. So is there a rule(no) but there is fairness. I may try a shark move for fun but in gambling I have grown out of that move.
 

Donovan

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I too feel sticking any combination of the 2, 4, 6, 7 & 8 together as the head "3" balls is wrong. Some people, will actually change breaking sides on you depending on how the table is rolling. It is because of this I do try to avoid those balls in the front or the rack. Is it out right "wrong?" Well, no, but it is kind of disrespectful. Golden Rule time for me. I don't want to see it when I break, so I won't give it to them.
 

Shag_Fu

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Ive solved the rack problems by playing rack your own. Sometimes i'll rack for the opponent but generally those I play with agree to rack your with the opponents option to check the rack which I sometimes exercise. I usually look at rack placement(hi/lo) and if its straight as crooked racks will give up a corner ball to the breaker on occasion.
 

fred bentivegna

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Me, a gentleman?

Me, a gentleman?

suki said:
First you ask for the best rack but when you rack you never give them that. I dont think you could get away with that playing an opponent you already asked for the 1-8 rack, could you? As far as never giving a "stranger" that rack I consider unfair and not a gentleman. I like the the game to be equal between opponents even if I am gambling high or low. It is more fun that way.
Most people gambling at 1p know what is going on I would hope. So if I ask you to rack my way, do you. Do I have a right at any time to rack my own? I have a friend I play almost daily who is one of the best 1p players anywhere, it is just that he quit gambling years ago but he is so competitive he will always spot the 8 ball every chance he gets, i.e. after a foul cause he knows my eyes aren't like they used to be. We have friendly arguments all the time whether he can do that or if I can request another ball. He says no, just to shark me. If he makes 6 balls and scratches and one is the 8 he will spot the 8 without fail and we are never gambling. So is there a rule(no) but there is fairness. I may try a shark move for fun but in gambling I have grown out of that move.

When in the whole course of my life did I ever profess to be a gentleman? Firstly, I dont waste my time racking the 6 and 8 together. You will catch a beef 50% of the time. Its not worth it. If you specifically ask me for the 1 and 8 I will give it to you, otherwise, no. I never ask for the 1 and 8 because I aint looking to wake anybody up. Before this thread did you know that the 1 and 8 was good to break to? I am content to not voluntarily give it to you and I never squawk about anything other than the 6 and 8.
I also wish to congratulate you on your ethics and sportsmanship. It is very admirable. I must ask you this, though, how many times have you had to play and win in order to feed your family or pay your rent, or to keep eating yourself? How often does it really mean something when you lose? Its nice and warm in Calif., how about when its zero outside and you dont have a room to go to? Do you think you would be spotting up 1's and 8's and calling fouls on yourself then?

the Beard
 

suki

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Well, well , well

Well, well , well

fred bentivegna said:
When in the whole course of my life did I ever profess to be a gentleman? Firstly, I dont waste my time racking the 6 and 8 together. You will catch a beef 50% of the time. Its not worth it. If you specifically ask me for the 1 and 8 I will give it to you, otherwise, no. I never ask for the 1 and 8 because I aint looking to wake anybody up. Before this thread did you know that the 1 and 8 was good to break to? I am content to not voluntarily give it to you and I never squawk about anything other than the 6 and 8.
I also wish to congratulate you on your ethics and sportsmanship. It is very admirable. I must ask you this, though, how many times have you had to play and win in order to feed your family or pay your rent, or to keep eating yourself? How often does it really mean something when you lose? Its nice and warm in Calif., how about when its zero outside and you dont have a room to go to? Do you think you would be spotting up 1's and 8's and calling fouls on yourself then?

the Beard

Well that is the difference between you and me. I have and would.
And yes, since I have been playing 1p for 50 plus years, I think I knew that contrasting colors is the best.
I just do not like sharking for anything especially since I know 10 times more than the sharker.
 

Tom Wirth

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The problem is easily solved by allowing each player to rack their own.
I have come to the conclusion that placing the eight at the head of the rack and the one ball second is best for me. The contrast is stark and makes it easy for me to make just the hit I'm looking for.

I've had players who liked to have the one and nine balls up front. When a player wishes those two balls to be racked up front I begin to wonder what's going on in their mind to make such a request. That combination is just as bad as the eight and two, four, or six.

It is best when racking for the first game for each other, to ask which two balls they prefer. And offer to rack them as requested with equal consideration returned. I've alway received a favorable response.
 

Tom Wirth

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As a follow up on this thread.
I have had to play a few guys who tried all kinds of moves with the rack.
Everything from tilting the rack or giving me a loose rack on the side I'm breaking from, to the most bazaar move I've ever seen. This one guy thought he might get away with racking the balls without the eight ball. That's right! The eight ball was already in his side of the ball tray and there was a gap in the center of the rack! Now how sick is that! Funny thing is, it is easy to overlook after a few hours of play if your not being very observant, and the balls will break just about the same.

I caught him and he laughed about it as though it was just a joke but let me tell you, if I hadn't noticed the missing ball it wouldn't have been a joke and the score would have been one to nothing the moment the balls were busted.

For guys like that I might just place two striped balls up front and make certain that the white of each ball is touching. Let them try that on for size.
 

fred bentivegna

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Very creative!

Very creative!

Tom Wirth said:
As a follow up on this thread.
... This one guy thought he might get away with racking the balls without the eight ball. That's right! The eight ball was already in his side of the ball tray and there was a gap in the center of the rack! Now how sick is that! Funny thing is, it is easy to overlook after a few hours of play if your not being very observant, and the balls will break just about the same.

I caught him and he laughed about it as though it was just a joke but let me tell you, if I hadn't noticed the missing ball it wouldn't have been a joke and the score would have been one to nothing the moment the balls were busted.

For guys like that I might just place two striped balls up front and make certain that the white of each ball is touching. Let them try that on for size.

Two very creative moves. Both of which, even after 50 years, I wasnt aware of. Shows you, you can always learn something new.

the Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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Tom Wirth said:
The eight ball was already in his side of the ball tray and there was a gap in the center of the rack! Now how sick is that! Funny thing is, it is easy to overlook after a few hours of play if your not being very observant, and the balls will break just about the same.
A solid counter-move to that would be to just pull your cueball over to the opposite side and break for the other hole. Then it's one-nuthin'...YOU. I suspect he'd suddenly notice that the center ball was missing.

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Dirty mind

Dirty mind

gulfportdoc said:
A solid counter-move to that would be to just pull your cueball over to the opposite side and break for the other hole. Then it's one-nuthin'...YOU. I suspect he'd suddenly notice that the center ball was missing.

Doc

Youre always thinking, Doc. They need you on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They cant outsmart anybody.

the Beard
 

onepocket926

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....it is a sign of disrespect.....

....it is a sign of disrespect.....

...to rack the eight ball in the front....brings an opponants focus......to the head ball........I like to rack with a slightly less dark ball as head......light balls behind....so the opponant can't have any excuses....lol.....but for my self....I rack light balls in the rear....so when he misses....I will have a light ball on my side of the table.........I tend to put the 6 ball in the middle...if the color is to close to the color of the cloth.....(harder to see against a rail).....but maybe thats why they call me....Blind Paul....lol....there is no rule against it.......it's just customary.......to afford your opponant....the rack that you would like.....remember........even though .....one pocket is the toughest game on the felt.......it's a ...Gentlemans Game also........(tux is optional).....lol.....
 

onepocket926

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.....oh I see !!!!!!!....lol.....

.....oh I see !!!!!!!....lol.....

.....after I replied...I read the other replies....and I see ...."Shark Moves"....were refered to........if playing on a "Gold Crown"....remember to....count your balls frequently...or keep them in the other pockets...or your pants pocket....I remember one of the older players from....the Billiard Palace...in Bellflower....used to spend a lot of time....."Thinking"....(thats what he said he was doin')...... at the head of the table....yet everytime I thought I was close to bein' out.....I'd go to the ball rack......(located at the head of the table just below the rail)..........and I'd have less balls than I thought.........hmmmmmmmmm !!!!.........(which by itself did'nt suprize me as much...as).......he'd always have more than I thought.....lol......(you do the math)....lol....
 
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Pelican

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Magnolia Springs, AL
Tom Wirth said:
For guys like that I might just place two striped balls up front and make certain that the white of each ball is touching. Let them try that on for size.

For guys like that I might just move his "other" two balls up about 6 inches with my shoe.

Pel
 
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