One pocket origins?

opposedtwin · Mar 10, 2011

When did the game of one pocket begin? Were there one pocket specialists as compared to 14:1 devotees?

bstroud · Mar 10, 2011

I don't know how old but Taylor told me it was a common game in the South when he was 12 or 13.

Bill Stroud

Skin · Mar 10, 2011

opposedtwin said:
When did the game of one pocket begin? Were there one pocket specialists as compared to 14:1 devotees?

Steve Booth has done a nice job putting together the answers to your questions at this link:

http://onepocket.org/history.htm

Skin

Artie Bodendorfer · Mar 10, 2011

opposedtwin said:
When did the game of one pocket begin? Were there one pocket specialists as compared to 14:1 devotees?

When I started playing pool I played Straight pool and nine ball i use to love straight pool.

But as I got better I realized That straight pool took too long too play and nine ball was too lucky.

And anyone that could shoot could play good nine ball.

So I startit playing eight ball and one pocket. I was trying too figure out what I had too do too win.

So I figuerd out since everyone shot good and banket good, THe only way too have a edge is to play smarter.

So I started breacking down the whole game and learning everything I could,
From the beginning too end.

And I broke both games down too a science and nobody did what I di. Because most people wont put in all that effort too learn the game.

And I also learned that if I played that way nobody could ein. Because I would no when too shoot and when not too shooy.

And most people just shot at ecerything. And I learned how to make all kinds off different games. And my handycaping wae better then the other players and pool players.

Because off what I new So I would back 3 and 4 players at a time. And that was better then even playing. Nobody had the amount off action I had in the pool room.

And I was in with every player and histler. SAme in Cards. And people were scared to platy me. Not because off how I shot Put because off what I new.

And I started getting a reputation. It doesnt matter what Artie spots you or how he playes you he wins no mtter how he plays you.

And the reason when I get in a discousion about pool knowledge and how too play the game. Itsv hard to belive that people cant see it.

And Why wouldnt I be the smardest and most knowlegable. When I learnd the came the correct way. And howe the game should be learned and played.

And the greatest discousions were with the greatest players. And Freddy even would say I dont no howe he does it. And Freddt knowes a lot off pool I mean a lot.

And what all the great players new and did. Because he learned it and seen what they did. And Freddys knowledge was above the greatest players.

But Freddy had less ability or he would have been the greatest banker in live. And this story was never told. But Freddy counld never figure out what I did,

But he new it was something good or how else could I beat the greatest players that all off them shot better and banket better. And thier was only one answer. I new more then all the other players.

Because My ability was limited liike Freddys so I had too componsate for having less ability. And my win percentage when I look back was scary.

One thing I want too make very clear too everyone. If a player Plays you one pocket. And you shoot better then him and you bank better then him. And he Beats you. How do you think he wins?

And people still fight it and argue about it. I make it real clear if A player shoots asy better then me. And can spot me the 6 or 7 ball playing nine ball. And cab spot me 9 to 7 ot 9 to 6 playing banks.

And he has more ability and I win HOW SO YOU THINK I DO IT. Thier is only one answer I have too be way smarter then they are. OR how can I win with such a big disadvantage.

And thats why I won Because off my knowledge howe too play the game. And People still dont get it. If you no that a weeker player beat the champions that shot better. Because off his Knwledge.

Why would you not want to learn that knowledge and correct shots. I dont understand it. If I new a aeeker player beat the best players. I would want to no every shot he shoots. And Why.

WE are talking about someone who plaed the best. Not just some one who only played suckers. And I played plenty off them too. And people will challege a players shots . Who won because off just what you are debatting.

But I think everyone knowes if a player shoots better and banks better and has more ability the only way thee other player can win.
He has too be way smarter then thee other player. Thier is no other way too win.

And If someone can spot someone the 7 ball in nine ball and spot him 9 to 7 in bank pool and has more ability. How much smarter does the player have to be to beat a player with all this extra talent? This is a tough one.

And I dont think it has ever been askt.

Skin · Mar 10, 2011

Artie, thanks for your last post. It gave me a new thought that I can use.

Skin

lll · Mar 10, 2011

Skin said:
Artie, thanks for your last post. It gave me a new thought that I can use.

Skin

mind sharing that thought??
you can pm me if you wish skin

lll · Mar 10, 2011

Skin said:
Steve Booth has done a nice job putting together the answers to your questions at this link:

http://onepocket.org/history.htm

Skin

i havent looked at that link in a long time
lots of good stuff for the history buffs
thanks for the link

Artie Bodendorfer · Mar 10, 2011

Skin said:
Artie, thanks for your last post. It gave me a new thought that I can use.

Skin[/QUOTE

I hope you learn all the things you want to learn.

Because thier is a lot too learn.

And it will fill up your life.

Thier are millions off things we can learn.

Learing is a prosses that goes on forever.

And say whatever you have too say.

People saying its too long. Nothing is too long. THat came from a person who doesnt want to take the time to say everything. So they cut it short.

This is my way of answering too people who think its too long or too much.

How much could anyone learn.

If all I say is HELLO and GOODby. that would be short enough.

One off the greatest things people can do is express themselves.

Always say what you want too say . Like its your last thing in life that you say.

How many people say U wish I could have said this or that to my mother or father before they died.

But the didnt. And its too late once thier gone.

Express yourself and ask any qouistion that you want to her the answer too. Or how else are you going to get youre answer.

And we learn by talking and comunicating. And dont hold back because you worry what people might say. Who cares what they say. People are always going too say something anyway.

fred bentivegna · Mar 10, 2011

Good question

Good question

Artie Bodendorfer said:
When I started playing pool I played Straight pool and nine ball i use to love straight pool.

But as I got better I realized That straight pool took too long too play and nine ball was too lucky.

And anyone that could shoot could play good nine ball.

So I startit playing eight ball and one pocket. I was trying too figure out what I had too do too win.

So I figuerd out since everyone shot good and banket good, THe only way too have a edge is to play smarter.

So I started breacking down the whole game and learning everything I could,
From the beginning too end.

And I broke both games down too a science and nobody did what I di. Because most people wont put in all that effort too learn the game.

And I also learned that if I played that way nobody could ein. Because I would no when too shoot and when not too shooy.

And most people just shot at ecerything. And I learned how to make all kinds off different games. And my handycaping wae better then the other players and pool players.

Because off what I new So I would back 3 and 4 players at a time. And that was better then even playing. Nobody had the amount off action I had in the pool room.

And I was in with every player and histler. SAme in Cards. And people were scared to platy me. Not because off how I shot Put because off what I new.

And I started getting a reputation. It doesnt matter what Artie spots you or how he playes you he wins no mtter how he plays you.

And the reason when I get in a discousion about pool knowledge and how too play the game. Itsv hard to belive that people cant see it.

And Why wouldnt I be the smardest and most knowlegable. When I learnd the came the correct way. And howe the game should be learned and played.

And the greatest discousions were with the greatest players. And Freddy even would say I dont no howe he does it. And Freddt knowes a lot off pool I mean a lot.

And what all the great players new and did. Because he learned it and seen what they did. And Freddys knowledge was above the greatest players.

But Freddy had less ability or he would have been the greatest banker in live. And this story was never told. But Freddy counld never figure out what I did,

But he new it was something good or how else could I beat the greatest players that all off them shot better and banket better. And thier was only one answer. I new more then all the other players.

Because My ability was limited liike Freddys so I had too componsate for having less ability. And my win percentage when I look back was scary.

One thing I want too make very clear too everyone. If a player Plays you one pocket. And you shoot better then him and you bank better then him. And he Beats you. How do you think he wins?

And people still fight it and argue about it. I make it real clear if A player shoots asy better then me. And can spot me the 6 or 7 ball playing nine ball. And cab spot me 9 to 7 ot 9 to 6 playing banks.

And he has more ability and I win HOW SO YOU THINK I DO IT. Thier is only one answer I have too be way smarter then they are. OR how can I win with such a big disadvantage.

And thats why I won Because off my knowledge howe too play the game. And People still dont get it. If you no that a weeker player beat the champions that shot better. Because off his Knwledge.

Why would you not want to learn that knowledge and correct shots. I dont understand it. If I new a aeeker player beat the best players. I would want to no every shot he shoots. And Why.

WE are talking about someone who plaed the best. Not just some one who only played suckers. And I played plenty off them too. And people will challege a players shots . Who won because off just what you are debatting.

But I think everyone knowes if a player shoots better and banks better and has more ability the only way thee other player can win.
He has too be way smarter then thee other player. Thier is no other way too win.

And If someone can spot someone the 7 ball in nine ball and spot him 9 to 7 in bank pool and has more ability. How much smarter does the player have to be to beat a player with all this extra talent? This is a tough one.

And I dont think it has ever been askt.

Artie has answered his own question. He won because he knew more than his opponent. He really was a weak 9 ball and bank pool player. I played him 8 to 6. Bugs played him 10 to 6 banks and one time played him 9 to 5. None of those games were very good for his opponents incidentally but he did get them.
I dont think I was ever dumb enough to bet against him -- except when I played him myself. When I bet on him, I usually rooted for the other guy. Even when I bet I couldnt watch him for very long. I usually couldnt follow what he was doing and it was all very dull and boring. Funny thing was, he would usually dog most of the balls he figured to dog, miss most of the balls he figured to miss, but somehow at the end the other guy was broke. To a guy just carelessly watching the game the other guy always looked like the better player.
I probably could have won a lot more money betting on him if I had wanted to, but the truth was I didnt bet on him all that often. Even I could figure out that there was something intrinsically wrong with betting on somebody and then pulling for the other side.

Beard

Deeman · Mar 10, 2011

I always heard about the special one pocket tables and have seen pictures of one in Oklahoma and one in New Orleans.

A thought, wouldn't it be nice to have one built or restored today? I'd love to see the additional bank plays that would be there.

DeeMan

Tramp Steamer · Mar 10, 2011

Deeman said:
I always heard about the special one pocket tables and have seen pictures of one in Oklahoma and one in New Orleans.

A thought, wouldn't it be nice to have one built or restored today? I'd love to see the additional bank plays that would be there.

DeeMan

There was one of those in a poolroom in my hometown, when I was a teenager. From what I hear those tables were popular, for the most part, in the midwest and the game that was played on them was called "Corners".

fred bentivegna · Mar 10, 2011

Jack Kramer's Cue n Cushion

Jack Kramer's Cue n Cushion

Deeman said:
I always heard about the special one pocket tables and have seen pictures of one in Oklahoma and one in New Orleans.

A thought, wouldn't it be nice to have one built or restored today? I'd love to see the additional bank plays that would be there.

DeeMan

In the 60s there was one in Jack Kramer's Cue n Cushion on 79th and Biscayne in Miami. It was a converted 5 x 10 billiard table. Next to my own Bensingers, the most exciting room to me was the Cue and Cushion. It was a modern room with about 18 Gold Crowns. In the winter season, almost every notable pool player from the East was there. Brooklyn Jimmy, Johnny Irish, Tony Scarface, Staten Island (Doc Holiday), Harry Cohen, Danny Di, along with Fats, Gene Skinner, Marcel Camp, Little Miami, Peter Rabbit, Mike Carella, and so forth. To a young kid like me, it was heaven.

It was the first time that I got to spend some time in the limelight. I got staked to play Norfolk Charlie some bank pool. I had to give him 8 to 7. Charlie was a big time Army Surplus store owner who came there every winter and gambled high. He would only play bank pool, but he would only play if he got a ball. Unfortunately, for those New York birds, Charlie played pretty good banks, and none of those East Coasters could spot him that much.

With so many desperate to beat this guy, somebody from Chicago that knew me (Tall Al Lameroux), said I could probably beat Charlie that way. I was at the time staying in a no-electricity flop on Miami Beach, and playing in Moe's open-air pool room on South Beach without two quarters to rub together. Frank Lee drove down and got me, brought me up to Kramer's, and the rest was history.

The fact that I could do what none of those certified champions could do was exhilarating. After being broke for so long, Charlie looked like a big pork chop sandwich. We played daily, and I beat him daily. He just wasnt used to losing with that spot.

Now, with a big bankroll, I moved up into North Miami and played at Kramer's nightly, and wound up having a wonderful winter. I was happier than a game knocker with the first cell phone. I even blew off my South Beach girlfriend. She was actually the girl friend of the famous jewel thief, Murph the Surf. The bitch would only see me on the sneak. While she was eating filet mignon at the Americana Hotel with Murph, I was subsiding on ten cent bagels from the local bagel factory next door to Moe's.

Ah, what memories....

Beard

It was at Kramer's that I once got into a woofin/cursing match with the most famous hit-man in town. (I didnt know him at the time) Roy, something (Wheeler?). While we were playing he started cursing me, so I started cursing him. The whole poolroom got quiet and I quickly figured something was real wrong. I had heard that there was a murderous mob guy that played a little pool in Kramer's once in awhile. My survival instincts alerted me that this must be him, considering the whole pool room froze all at one time. Turned out Roy got a big kick out of it all and started laughing, and the joint let out a collective sigh and resumed breathing. Mr 3Cushion should remember his name, they played billiards often and beat him out of a lot of money. Why he dared play him I dont know, But that is another story...

NH Steve · Mar 11, 2011

fred bentivegna said:
In the 60s there was one in Jack Kramer's Cue n Cushion on 79th and Biscayne in Miami. It was a converted 5 x 10 billiard table. Next to my own Bensingers, the most exciting room to me was the Cue and Cushion. It was a modern room with about 18 Gold Crowns. In the winter season, almost every notable pool player from the East was there. Brooklyn Jimmy, Johnny Irish, Tony Scarface, Staten Island (Doc Holiday), Harry Cohen, Danny Di, along with Fats, Gene Skinner, Marcel Camp, Little Miami, Peter Rabbit, Mike Carella, and so forth. To a young kid like me, it was heaven.

It was the first time that I got to spend some time in the limelight. I got staked to play Norfolk Charlie some bank pool. I had to give him 8 to 7. Charlie was a big time Army Surplus store owner who came there every winter and gambled high. He would only play bank pool, but he would only play if he got a ball. Unfortunately, for those New York birds, Charlie played pretty good banks, and none of those East Coasters could spot him that much.

With so many desperate to beat this guy, somebody from Chicago that knew me (Tall Al Lameroux), said I could probably beat Charlie that way. I was at the time staying in a no-electricity flop on Miami Beach, and playing in Moe's open-air pool room on South Beach without two quarters to rub together. Frank Lee drove down and got me, brought me up to Kramer's, and the rest was history.

The fact that I could do what none of those certified champions could do was exhilarating. After being broke for so long, Charlie looked like a big pork chop sandwich. We played daily, and I beat him daily. He just wasnt used to losing with that spot.

Now, with a big bankroll, I moved up into North Miami and played at Kramer's nightly, and wound up having a wonderful winter. I was happier than a game knocker with the first cell phone. I even blew off my South Beach girlfriend. She was actually the girl friend of the famous jewel thief, Murph the Surf. The bitch would only see me on the sneak. While she was eating filet mignon at the Americana Hotel with Murph, I was subsiding on ten cent bagels from the local bagel factory next door to Moe's.

Ah, what memories....

Beard

It was at Kramer's that I once got into a woofin/cursing match with the most famous hit-man in town. (I didnt know him at the time) Roy, something (Wheeler?). While we were playing he started cursing me, so I started cursing him. The whole poolroom got quiet and I quickly figured something was real wrong. I had heard that there was a murderous mob guy that played a little pool in Kramer's once in awhile. My survival instincts alerted me that this must be him, considering the whole pool room froze all at one time. Turned out Roy got a big kick out of it all and started laughing, and the joint let out a collective sigh and resumed breathing. Mr 3Cushion should remember his name, they played billiards often and beat him out of a lot of money. Why he dared play him I dont know, But that is another story...

Good story, Beard

Seeing the name Mike Carella -- he's a player that was apparently quite the shooting star, but got shot down himself while still young??

NH Steve · Mar 11, 2011

My thought after having read Mike Shamos's well researched article is that if "bar hole" handicaps where commonplace (where better players could only score in certain pockets, while weaker players could score in any pocket), then when two top hustlers played each other, it would have been a natural progression to play one hole against one hole. Since they already played the common players one hole to six, it was only logical that the top players would play each other one hole to one hole. And the popularity of One Pocket when two hustlers meet -- even today -- only confirms the likelihood of that progression.

Anyone ever try that handicap with a real weak player? i.e. YOu shoot only in to one pocket and they can shoot into the other 5? Their best chance to win is of course to bang the balls wide open early, to spread them around and create threats everywhere. But assuming they cannot "move" of course, you can still win, and get those weaker players to the table

If they shoot a little too well to do this one pocket to five, you can change it one pocket to three (the opposite side of the table), and then just one pocket to two (foot pocket and side on the same side) and next thing you know they will be playing one pocket

Now how did the game of One Pocket originate, lol??

bstroud · Mar 11, 2011

I played on a 2 pocket table in Joplin MO.
They played one pocket to the back pockets.
Difficult game.

Bill Stroud

bstroud · Mar 11, 2011

Anyone ever try that handicap with a real weak player? i.e. YOu shoot only in to one pocket and they can shoot into the other 5? Their best chance to win is of course to bang the balls wide open early, to spread them around and create threats everywhere. But assuming they cannot "move" of course, you can still win, and get those weaker players to the table

If they shoot a little too well to do this one pocket to five, you can change it one pocket to three (the opposite side of the table), and then just one pocket to two (foot pocket and side on the same side) and next thing you know they will be playing one pocket

I've played a lot of players where I only had 1 pocket to make the 9 and they had the other 5. I couldn't win in their pockets and they couldn't win in yours.It's about like giving up something between the 8 and the last 2.

Bill Stroud

cuesmith · Mar 11, 2011

I'd always heard, originally from Clem Metz, that Heydon Lingo started one pocket. Or did he just make it more popular?

bstroud · Mar 11, 2011

I saw Lingo play a few times when I was young.
Usually with the Eufaula Kid.

He still played well then.

I think Taylor told me about Rags being a very early one pocket player.
I never got to see him play but Taylor said he was the best.

Bill Stroud

Artie Bodendorfer · Mar 11, 2011

bstroud said:
I saw Lingo play a few times when I was young.
Usually with the Eufaula Kid.

He still played well then.

I think Taylor told me about Rags being a very early one pocket player.
I never got to see him play but Taylor said he was the best.

Bill Stroud

I no we never played because I remember all my loosers and I dont keep track off my winners because their are too mant.

Did you ever play Billy Or SJD or Freddy or Ronnie?

bstroud · Mar 12, 2011

Artie,

I know we never played also.

Like you I remember mostly when I lost. I remember every detail.

Joey Spathe beat me 3 games in Baltimore and I remember the room, the table, the unfinished floor, the half open window, the bottle of J and J baby powder, the white towel he used, the white power all over the table and most of all the cross corner bank on the 8 ball he made to make me quit.

That was almost 50 years ago.

I remember when Ed Kelly beat me in Vegas. The last 3 games I had him in dead traps. He had to take 2 deliberate scratches in each game. Each game he found a combo I overlooked and ran 10 and out. 3 games.

SJD beat me when I was very young. I beat him the day before playing 9 ball.

Bananas beat me at the Tropicana Bowl. 3 games.

Ray Booth beat me some where in the South. 3 games.

Those are the only people that ever beat me playing one pocket.

The ones I beat:

Freddy-12 in a row
Billy I.
Miserack
Hopkins
Mexican Johny
Surfer-bar table one pocket
Strawberry
Beanie and his partner
Siegel
Cook
Hall
Grady
Puckett
Johny Edwards
Black Paul in Chi
Stevens
Glen Knowles
Florence
Jersey Red

1000's of others all on their home court. They got to bet as much as they wanted. I was betting 1000.00 a game playing 9 ball when I was 17. My own money. I have Never been staked. I have never had a spot from anyone and I don't plan on ever getting one.

That's just one pocket.

The only players that ever beat me playing 9 ball were Louie Roberts and Toby Sweet. Toby quit me 5 games winner at Park Row in NYC and said " I'll play you some more at 7-11." That was his home court. I may have been dumb in those days but I wasn't stupid. I said no thanks. He played the best push out I ever saw.

I never ducked any good players. I just didn't go out of my way to play them. They never had any money. If the asked me they got played.

I would put my win/loss record up against anyone that has ever played.

Thanks for asking,

Bill

One pocket origins?

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