How Many Shots To Get Out Of Break?

How many shots do you think is the average number to get out of an average break? To get out of a great break? I'm thinking 10 may get the game rolling, to negate the break and neutralize the ball positions on the table.

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis said:

How many shots do you think is the average number to get out of an average break? To get out of a great break? I'm thinking 10 may get the game rolling, to negate the break and neutralize the ball positions on the table.

Dennis

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Ten shots? The game ought to be over by then, shouldn't it?

Skin

Skin said:

Ten shots? The game ought to be over by then, shouldn't it?

Skin

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SJDinPHX said:

Actually Skin, it would be a waste of two shots if you were playing the latest incarnation [sic] of the Rust Belt Lunatic:sorryROTFLMFAO:lol.

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I figured I'd save him the trouble of typing up his response.

RBL

I have never looked at those particular statistics, although I have looked at other OnePocket stats. Off the top of my head this is my answer -- I think this may be one of those places were stats don't mean much, because you can have such huge swings. I.e., sometimes it will only take one shot to get out of the break, and other times the incoming player never gets out from under -- that makes it tough to average. If I was a mathematician I would say you would have to throw out all the longest along with the ones the incoming player loses, then count and divide (for average) the rest.

Who Is Playing????

Who Is Playing????

Cowboy Dennis said:

How many shots do you think is the average number to get out of an average break? To get out of a great break? I'm thinking 10 may get the game rolling, to negate the break and neutralize the ball positions on the table.

Dennis

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The answer clearly depends on the skills of the player. I play some players that come with fantastic shots that often turn the break around immediately and others who in the same situation just do not get that aggressive and "pick" their way slowly and deliberately out of the break.
Im always amazed at the way Scott Frost aggressively turns the break around. So my answer is "It Depends". keith

im interested to hear from the upper level guys
if after 2 or 3 tries you havent turned the breakarond
not likely you will
2 equal high level players)

What is there to gain from aquiring this knowledge? I can't see myself counting from game to game the number of shots it takes me to equalize my opponent's breaks. And if I had someone on the sidelines counting the innings for me to come up with an average, what would I conclude from that information. If I keep that stat, why not keep the same stat on my opponent?

Say I were playing someone and found that during one particular session I was averaging 20% or 30% more shots to escape their break? Does that mean this opponent is better than average? Does it mean I'm not playing up to my standards? Is the table and or the balls helping to provide a more potent break on this given day? There are so many factors to consider that this stat may mean nothing. Nothing to me anyway. I would now have to keep stats on all kinds of information to make a valid conclusion. As long as I get out of that break, that's all I care about. In keeping that stat I might as well keep stats on the average minutes or innings per game.

In my estimation a stat which makes more sense to keep would be the number of balls I give up per game to a given player. I may want to know the average number of balls I run given an open table. And the number of balls my opponent runs on average given the same conditions. With these stats I might be able to gauge the potential handicap for the next session with this opponent.
The bottom line is that all that really matters who won?

Tom

Tom Wirth said:

What is there to gain from aquiring this knowledge?

Tom

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What is there to gain from acquiring any knowledge ever, in any endeavor whatsoever?

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis said:

What is there to gain from acquiring any knowledge ever, in any endeavor whatsoever?

Dennis

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I can answer this one. In pool, pretty much nothing, except personal satisfaction and enjoyment.... which is important no doubt, which is why we are all here I guess.

Knowledge for knowledge sake is a fine thing.
There is some knowledge which offers little to no importance to the overall issue. There is some knowledge which simple gets in the way of performance.
Then therre is knowledge which provides insight and power over others. Tell us, from your perspective what you think is gained from knowing the average number of innings it takes to get out of a break, and what reason would you attribute to that stat?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I really want to know where you are going with this idea.

Tom

Tom Wirth said:

There is some knowledge which simple gets in the way of performance.

Tom

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Yeah, like knowing you can't make any money even if you play like a champion. Lol.

That's a good one.

I know I have often heard references like so-and-so "gets out of the break better than any player I ever played", and you don't hear that about every player for sure. Bugs was one that I have heard it about. We just heard below that Scott Frost is another. With Ronnie's reputation for moving lots of balls I imagine he was good at it too, but I never saw vintage RA.

What I am trying to say is that some players appear to be more efficient at it than others.

I think that after two or three shots by each player the break is pretty much history, and the game is under way. Who decides when you have gotten out of the break? The break is just an advantage, and not always that. When the advantage has gone, the break is over, I suppose. You don't really have to reverse it and establish an advantage of your own, and you don't have to lose the game just because you never got out of the break. We are told that the breaker wins most often - does that mean the opponent never did get out of the break? I don't think that holds true. In many games the advantage changes sides several times.

Tough question, and there may be no answer. :frus

vapros said:

I think that after two or three shots by each player the break is pretty much history, and the game is under way. Who decides when you have gotten out of the break? The break is just an advantage, and not always that. When the advantage has gone, the break is over, I suppose. You don't really have to reverse it and establish an advantage of your own, and you don't have to lose the game just because you never got out of the break. We are told that the breaker wins most often - does that mean the opponent never did get out of the break? I don't think that holds true. In many games the advantage changes sides several times.

Tough question, and there may be no answer. :frus

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to me getiing out of the break is part of the beginning game
most balls are at the foot half of the table
and the player is trying to neutralize or gain an advantage from the breaker
when he accomplishes that he is out of the break
imho

vapros said:

I think that after two or three shots by each player the break is pretty much history, and the game is under way. Who decides when you have gotten out of the break? The break is just an advantage, and not always that. When the advantage has gone, the break is over, I suppose. You don't really have to reverse it and establish an advantage of your own, and you don't have to lose the game just because you never got out of the break. We are told that the breaker wins most often - does that mean the opponent never did get out of the break? I don't think that holds true. In many games the advantage changes sides several times.

Tough question, and there may be no answer. :frus

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i dont understand how you could win if you didnt get out of the break???


the player can get out of the break and still lose because to me
once the middle and end game starts the player is out of the break
however the breaker may still have the advantage based on ball score and/or ball positions
and of course the player could get out of the break make a mistake later that costs him the game
imho

C'mon, Larry! Are you telling me that when the game is forty minutes old and both players have shot 23 times, that the break is still being contested? The break is ancient history at that point, and the game is in a different phase. Even if the breaker got a 3 ball advantage in the early going, and then you turned the advantage around after the twelfth shot and won the game, that isn't getting out of the break - it's something else, as I see it.

vapros said:

C'mon, Larry! Are you telling me that when the game is forty minutes old and both players have shot 23 times, that the break is still being contested? The break is ancient history at that point, and the game is in a different phase.- it's Even if the breaker got a 3 ball advantage in the early going, and then you turned the advantage around after the twelfth shot and won the game, that isn't getting out of the break something else, as I see it.

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bill
maybe its semantics
to me once you turn the advantage of the breaker around you are out of the break

lets use a wrestling analogy
one wrestler takes down another and is on top
the one on the bottom wiggles and wrangles
it doesnt matter for how long
the one on top has the advantage
once the guy on the bottom breaks free

he is "out of the break"

what happens next is the next chapter of the match

lll said:

i dont understand how you could win if you didnt get out of the break???


the player can get out of the break and still lose because to me
once the middle and end game starts the player is out of the break
however the breaker may still have the advantage based on ball score and/or ball positions
and of course the player could get out of the break make a mistake later that costs him the game
imho

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A player cannot get out of the break and still win..example You are in a tough spot directly after the break and you try something aggressive and screw it up and completely sell out. The balls are wide open and your opponent has an easy out and dogs an easy ball leaving you an easy out that you capitalize on. You won the game but did you get out of the break? NOPE just one example