Ball On Spot Safety Play

androd · Mar 20, 2013

fred bentivegna said:
But of course. If I felt out of sorts I would shoot Androd's shot, although I stopped doing that against Bugs because he would continually spin bank the ball cross corner from the most ridiculous angles. Against ordinary humans if I didnt feel right I would try and put the object ball on the 3rd diamond and the cue ball about 1/2 diamond on the other long rail.

Beard

He'd either be 2 or 3 railing, not spinning across corner.

Rod.

tylerdurden · Mar 20, 2013

Cowboy Dennis said:
I played yesterday and again today so I'm hitting 'em good (for me). I set up and shot the safeties we've been discussing, with the cue ball near the upper corner.

I shot it 1st with the cue ball approximately 2" from each pocket tit. I shot the bank to my left about 20 times and it was very unpredictable for me.

I then shot it to put the ball on my opponents side rail and had great success. I did give up 2 or 3 tough straight-backs but the cue ball was near the rail and they were tough shots. On this shot I aimed the object ball for the diamond.

I also tried the shot Tom mentioned, putting the object ball nearer the side pocket. This is a very sensitive shot and I can't shoot it with consistency. Plus, on the well-worn table I played on, if the object ball got too close to the rail it would freeze on it giving up a good three-railer.

Here's a few of the results I had banking the ball to my left, with the cueball close to the corner. I sprayed 'em everywhere:

View attachment 7959

Next up is the shot I like. So many of these came out well that I stopped shooting it after 15 or so. I gave up a couple straight-backs but with the cueball very near the headrail. The three-railers that were left are tough. I shot many of them and a few worked out o.k. but a couple also double-kissed in the center of the table.

View attachment 7960

I also tried the shot Tom mentioned, putting the object ball nearer to the side pocket. This shot is too tough for me. When it worked it was great though.

View attachment 7961

I then placed the cueball approx. 4" from the rails. Both safeties became much easier from here. I still did better with the shot I like though. I gave up some straight-backs and two-railers when I didn't put the object ball high enough back uptable.

View attachment 7962

I also tried cutting the ball in from this position. I made it 4 times, scratching one of the times, I overcut it once and came out good. I only tried to cut it in 5 times because I already know I like that shot.

Anyway, those were my experiments for the day.

Dennis

The last time I played serious one pocket, I actually played to put Morro in almost the exact position of the diagram (I left him a little closer to the end rail). He cut at it and it went ever so softly, and beautifully right into the center of the pocket. The only two thoughts I had after he did that was 1) that was so beautiful, and 2) if I had the shot again I'd leave him in the same exact spot lol

tylerdurden · Mar 20, 2013

wincardona said:
Am I understanding this right, are you saying that if the cue ball was positioned in the pocket you would back cut the spotted ball for the win? I haven't seen any player...including top players... attempt that shot from that position in the last 30 years. When I was 23 years old and shooting straight, I remember playing that shot against Boston Shorty at the Stardust tournament. The score was tied at 3 apiece race to 4 and he shot the last ball in the top pocket and left me this shot I cut it in and scratched two rails in the same pocket I was shooting out of. I played the same shot shortly after that and scratched again. I never again played or thought about playing the shot again.

Dr. Bill

That's what I was saying in the other thread. I hate shooting here, because even if you make it, you have a great chance to go 2 rails right in the same pocket. You can butcher it fat, and that is a nightmare. Well, I left it to a guy on purpose as you can see in the post above, and I am 0-1, lol.

fred bentivegna · Mar 20, 2013

androd said:
He'd either be 2 or 3 railing, not spinning across corner.
Rod.

From where you apparently wanted to leave it in your diagram (in your post #18), that would be a hanger for him. No worst than 6 to 5 against.

Beard

If I wasnt so lazy I would put up a diagram of the limits of where he might spin the ball back to the corner. You would be amazed.

bstroud · Mar 20, 2013

What about putting it in the middle of the end rail? It eliminates the bank for sure and brings the scratch into play if you cut it.

Guess I will try it at the pool room today.

So much for that: I made it on the first try.

I guess there is a reason for conventional wisdom.

Bill S.

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 20, 2013

fred bentivegna said:
But of course. If I felt out of sorts I would shoot Androd's shot, although I stopped doing that against Bugs because he would continually spin bank the ball cross corner from the most ridiculous angles. Against ordinary humans if I didnt feel right I would try and put the object ball on the 3rd diamond and the cue ball about 1/2 diamond on the other long rail.

Beard

androd said:
He'd either be 2 or 3 railing, not spinning across corner.
Rod.

fred bentivegna said:
From where you apparently wanted to leave it in your diagram (in your post #18), that would be a hanger for him. No worst than 6 to 5 against.

Beard

If I wasnt so lazy I would put up a diagram of the limits of where he might spin the ball back to the corner. You would be amazed.

Freddy,

Do you know which pocket Bugs would be shooting at? Here's the layout with pockets labeled. This is why Rod said Bugs would be banking 2 or 3 rails, not cross-corner.

jtompilot · Mar 20, 2013

Dennis I played your safety twice tonight. It worked out great. Six shots later I won the two games I used it in.

ulikastr8pool · Mar 21, 2013

fred bentivegna said:
From where you apparently wanted to leave it in your diagram (in your post #18), that would be a hanger for him. No worst than 6 to 5 against.

Beard

If I wasnt so lazy I would put up a diagram of the limits of where he might spin the ball back to the corner. You would be amazed.

If you're feeling sprightlier later on, I'd definitely be interested..

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 21, 2013

jtompilot said:
Dennis I played your safety twice tonight. It worked out great. Six shots later I won the two games I used it in.

Well Jim, since the shot is purely defensive I'm guessing that you made some good shots after you played that one

.

I still remember the first player to shoot that shot against me, it was only 10-11 years ago. I never saw anyone shoot it in my life till then. I remember thinking "Damn, he put that ball on my side".

Dennis

fred bentivegna · Mar 21, 2013

Cowboy Dennis said:
Freddy,

Do you know which pocket Bugs would be shooting at? Here's the layout with pockets labeled. This is why Rod said Bugs would be banking 2 or 3 rails, not cross-corner.

View attachment 7971

We must of course, assume that Bugs is the incoming player. If he wasnt he would have just shot the ball into his pocket rather than playing safe.

So just reverse the pocket scenario.

Beard

fred bentivegna · Mar 21, 2013

ulikastr8pool said:
If you're feeling sprightlier later on, I'd definitely be interested..

The probable limits of Bugs shooting the bank is let's say, the cue ball is in front of his pocket and the object ball is about 2 1/2 diamonds up from the other pocket on the long rail.
And he could spin it back to his pocket.

Beard

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 21, 2013

fred bentivegna said:
We must of course, assume that Bugs is the incoming player. If he wasnt he would have just shot the ball into his pocket rather than playing safe.

So just reverse the pocket scenario.

Beard

Oh...I see...Bugs is banking the ball one-rail to...someone's knocking on the door, gotta go, bye

.

RBL

wincardona · Mar 21, 2013

fred bentivegna said:
The 2 rail scratch is always a possibility, depending on whether you are shooting out of the long or short end of the table. But remember, two balls come up and you havent outright lost the game.

Are you saying, that I am not telling the truth? It sure sounds like it. I see no indication where you might be giving me the benefit of the doubt. You, apparently in your rush to contradict my claim, overlooked the trap that I laid. :sorry

The infernal, ongoing knocks that the C...m J...er attached to most every post that I have made in the last 5 yrs has taught me never to say anything that I cant instantly prove. You did notice that I mentioned that I taught the shot to Col Bille didnt you? You shoulda waited until he had said something to say about it.

Beard

None of us are ever too old to learn something.:lol

My comment in no way was meant to discredit your statement. I said that I haven't seen anyone (especially top players) shoot that shot from the position referenced. I have played a lot of pool in the last 30 years against many top players where that shot came up and not once has any of the players ever shot it by back cutting it for the win. My contention is, if I'm truthful ( which I am) what does that tell you?

Dr. Bill

fred bentivegna · Mar 21, 2013

wincardona said:
My comment in no way was meant to discredit your statement. I said that I haven't seen anyone (especially top players) shoot that shot from the position referenced. I have played a lot of pool in the last 30 years against many top players where that shot came up and not once has any of the players ever shot it by back cutting it for the win. My contention is, if I'm truthful ( which I am) what does that tell you?

Dr. Bill

That tells me that I am either crazy or just plain stupid. Or delusional. Or dishonest. Maybe the Claim Jumper has been right all this time.

Beard

And incidentally, FYI your last sentence absolutely discredits my statements.

wgcp · Mar 21, 2013

shot

shot

Well put me in as the banger guy, i shot it last night and won the game with it, only I was on the tit on the short rail... it took the wind out of the guys sails, and he didn't win another game...

B

PS Lil john (from chicago),took me out of the 9 ball tournament. I got 3rd. Hard to beat a guy when you don't get but one shot and you have to two rail kick to get to the object ball...

pps I know it is heresey to mention 9ball on this forum...

fred bentivegna · Mar 21, 2013

wgcp said:
Well put me in as the banger guy, i shot it last night and won the game with it, only I was on the tit on the short rail... it took the wind out of the guys sails, and he didn't win another game...

B

PS Lil john (from chicago),took me out of the 9 ball tournament. I got 3rd. Hard to beat a guy when you don't get but one shot and you have to two rail kick to get to the object ball...

pps I know it is heresey to mention 9ball on this forum...

Please be kind enough to mention where you learned how to shoot that shot, Bille.

Beard

wgcp · Mar 21, 2013

I learned the shot in Freddy's basement... it works for other shots that come up all the time in one pocket... in fact, on a dvd with alex playing paricia? Alex missed a shot when he tried to throw a ball instead of using a simpler easier method...

by the way I showed Lil john how to hit it last night...

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 21, 2013

The Anatomy Of A Disaster

The Anatomy Of A Disaster

Is this the way all future threads here are going to evolve/devolve? Nobody states which cueball position they're f@@king shooting from. Arguments ensue for no logical f@@king reason whatsoever.

Player 3 responds to player 1 and player 2 takes offense.

You guys are f@@king whacked.

Don't take that the wrong way.

bstroud said:
I think an interesting question here is where is it better to place the cue ball?

If you leave the cue ball in the pocket the cut is possible.

If you leave it on the side rail the bank comes into play.

For me at least, I would rather force my opponent to bank for the win.

If he hits it a little short of his pocket he leaves a cut for me.

What do the rest of you think?

Bill S.

Bill Stroud says he'd "possibly" cut the ball in.

fred bentivegna said:
I learned how to shoot this shot from Gene Skinner 40 years ago. From the position you show the cue ball (in the middle of the pocket)most times, if I felt good I would try and cut it in. (That was then, not now) However if the cue ball was over at least an inch or two to the right (in the rt side of the pocket), when I was playing I would shoot the cut shot for all my bankroll, strange table, big money, whatever. Move it over another inch of so and it becomes a hanger (if you know how to shoot it) to any decent shot-maker.

You shoot at it to make it or miss the object ball entirely, which costs you a ball but does not lose you the game. As long as you dont scratch in the pocket you are ok.

Dont even ask, I aint gonna teach the shot over the internet. In person only. Col Bille, when he stayed with me, received the info on the shot and he shoots it regularly now.

Finally, I am forced to admit that I dont shoot at it anymore.:frus

Beard

Freddy says he'd cut the ball in.

wincardona said:
Am I understanding this right, are you saying that if the cue ball was positioned in the pocket you would back cut the spotted ball for the win? I haven't seen any player...including top players... attempt that shot from that position in the last 30 years. When I was 23 years old and shooting straight, I remember playing that shot against Boston Shorty at the Stardust tournament. The score was tied at 3 apiece race to 4 and he shot the last ball in the top pocket and left me this shot I cut it in and scratched two rails in the same pocket I was shooting out of. I played the same shot shortly after that and scratched again. I never again played or thought about playing the shot again.

Dr. Bill

wincardona quotes & responds to Bill Stroud only.

Cowboy Dennis said:
Do all respondents realize there are 2 different cueball positions in my layouts? It is clearly noted on the layouts.

One is approx. 2" from each corner pocket tit and the other is approx. 4" from each tit.

It makes a world of difference to the possible shots.

Dennis

I point out the two different cueball positions as it seems that a few are talking about both or either.

bstroud said:
Billy,

I have had this shot come up a lot in the past few weeks playing at Kolby's in PHX. It seems to be a favorite leave for one of the guys I give 10-6 to.

From inside the jaws I have made it several times, missed it entirely once, scratched once and over cut it the most. The GC I play on are very long so the scratch in the same pocket is not on. If it was I probably would not shoot to make it.

Bill S.

Stroud assures us that he does indeed shoot the cut shot.

fred bentivegna said:
The 2 rail scratch is always a possibility, depending on whether you are shooting out of the long or short end of the table. But remember, two balls come up and you havent outright lost the game.

Are you saying, that I am not telling the truth? It sure sounds like it. I see no indication where you might be giving me the benefit of the doubt. You, apparently in your rush to contradict my claim, overlooked the trap that I laid. :sorry

The infernal, ongoing knocks that the C...m J...er attached to most every post that I have made in the last 5 yrs has taught me never to say anything that I cant instantly prove. You did notice that I mentioned that I taught the shot to Col Bille didnt you? You shoulda waited until he had said something to say about it.

Beard

None of us are ever too old to learn something.:lol

Freddy apparently takes offense at wincardona doubting Bill Stroud since wincardona didn't quote his post & respond to it.

wincardona said:
My comment in no way was meant to discredit your statement. I said that I haven't seen anyone (especially top players) shoot that shot from the position referenced. I have played a lot of pool in the last 30 years against many top players where that shot came up and not once has any of the players ever shot it by back cutting it for the win. My contention is, if I'm truthful ( which I am) what does that tell you?

Dr. Bill

wincardona defends himself needlessly instead of pointing out that he was responding to Bill Stroud.

fred bentivegna said:
That tells me that I am either crazy or just plain stupid. Or delusional. Or dishonest. Maybe the Claim Jumper has been right all this time.

Beard

And incidentally, FYI your last sentence absolutely discredits my statements.

Freddy is hurt, again needlessly, as wincardona was replying to Bill Stroud.

Don't take this the wrong way but you old dudes need to get a grip. You respond to guys who didn't reply to you, you talk about Bugs shooting a shot that isn't even a subject of the thread, you defend yourself when you don't need to, and you really don't have clue one as to what we're talking about here or at least youse don't show it in your posts. This thread is like reading Artie's run-on forever threads and you don't even seem to notice it.

Stroud's talking about where to place the cueball

. Hey Bill, If you find that so interesting and want to discuss it start your own thread. This thread has 2 cueball starting positions, deal with it.

Everybody else talks about how they would cut it in or play safe without ever noting which cueball position they are referring to.

You guys are whacked.

Dennis

SJDinPHX · Mar 21, 2013

The post below is Fred, obviously a little miffed at Billy I., for saying, basically, that he (Fred) is full of ca-ca !..Dr. Bill, as usual, explained his logic, for NOT shooting the back-cut spot, from out of the corner pocket..Fred then found an excuse to get a "Claim Jumper" in his reply, hence my reply. (below)...I believe my only sin, was agreeing with the good doctor...

fred bentivegna said:
That tells me that I am either crazy or just plain stupid. Or delusional. Or dishonest. Maybe the Claim Jumper has been right all this time.<--You have never shown such insight..This has to be some sort of trap !

And incidentally, FYI your last sentence absolutely discredits my statement.

Beard

All I can say to Col. Bille is this, if/when you get out here, I will be glad to show you how the 'big boys' play 'the back-cut shot'..AND show you why.

....There is really nothing to "learn" on that particular shot..The english used means nothing at that distance, All that is required, is a long, perfect, razor thin cut, from an awkward position, with near perfect speed control, and everything good to happen after that....That could be why most top players don't even give it a second thought...The only way I would even consider it, is if I needed a LOT more than 1 ball, (and my oppo only needed 1)..and that was my only option...it's called a "Hail Mary"..

PS..One should always remember, practicing a shot, over and over, 'til you get it down pat, Should never be confused with a one time effort for your tournament life, or all your cash !... But than, we all know that...right ?

wincardona · Mar 23, 2013

SJDinPHX said:
The post below is Fred, obviously a little miffed at Billy I., for saying, basically, that he (Fred) is full of ca-ca !..Dr. Bill, as usual, explained his logic, for NOT shooting the back-cut spot, from out of the corner pocket..Fred then found an excuse to get a "Claim Jumper" in his reply, hence my reply. (below)...I believe my only sin, was agreeing with the good doctor...

All I can say to Col. Bille is this, if/when you get out here, I will be glad to show you how the 'big boys' play 'the back-cut shot'..AND show you why. ....There is really nothing to "learn" on that particular shot..The english used means nothing at that distance, All that is required, is a long, perfect, razor thin cut, from an awkward position, with near perfect speed control, and everything good to happen after that....That could be why most top players don't even give it a second thought...The only way I would even consider it, is if I needed a LOT more than 1 ball, (and my oppo only needed 1)..and that was my only option...it's called a "Hail Mary"..

PS..One should always remember, practicing a shot, over and over, 'til you get it down pat, Should never be confused with a one time effort for your tournament life, or all your cash !... But than, we all know that...right ?

I would like to say that I at no time tried to discredit Fred's statement ...that he shot the shot in a heart beat when he was young....However when he got older he stopped shooting it. I believe him that he did exactly what he said. I simply said that I nor any top player that I know has shot that shot in at least the last 30 years that I know of, which is the truth. Also, it doesn't make a difference to me what side of the pocket the cue ball may be in, Im simply not shooting the shot. Maybe for some it does make a difference, to each his own and I'm not trying to say that they shouldn't shoot the shot if they like it, it's just not for me.And yes it probably does make a difference to some what side of the pocket the cue ball is positioned in when making a decision to shoot it. I will only consider back cutting the ball in a reasonable situation if the cue ball is outside of the diamond before the pocket, anything steeper than that I'm really not interested in.:sorry That's my take on the shot, sorry if I disagree with others who feel differently.

Dr. Bill

Ball On Spot Safety Play

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