Players, Hustlers,Stakehorses and others

baby huey

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There are a lot of great stories and great players mentioned. i also have a few overlooked players.
How about Richie Florence? No one could out gamble Richie and there was never a better pool tournament promoter then he. If he was alive today I guarantee there would be some serious money added to tournaments.
I learned to play from several players who played world class but loved to drink and stayed broke. When they were sober they could really dab it. Mexican Phil, Crying Sam and Marvin Henderson all passed now but had great games. I think it took an absolutely great player to go up to Tacoma and beat Whitey playing anything. Ronnie Allen tried to give him a ball many times and got busted. Another great player in Tacoma was Max Wilson who also owned a pool room. His best playing days were in the 1950's. I played him in 1966 and he could still play one pocket very well. Tommy the Greek was in his seventies when I met him in 1966 and he played great one pocket. In 1968 I staked him against Denny Searcy and he beat Denny out of $240 and $20 a game and made Denny say uncle. I think Jay Swanson could play anybody and hold his own. Being a big guy myself, I really appreciated how well Jay played for a fat guy.

I could go on an on about west coast guys but when it came to nine ball, the west coast players dominated in the 1960's.
 

wincardona

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Dallas Tx.
There are a lot of great stories and great players mentioned. i also have a few overlooked players.
How about Richie Florence? No one could out gamble Richie and there was never a better pool tournament promoter then he. If he was alive today I guarantee there would be some serious money added to tournaments.
I learned to play from several players who played world class but loved to drink and stayed broke. When they were sober they could really dab it. Mexican Phil, Crying Sam and Marvin Henderson all passed now but had great games. I think it took an absolutely great player to go up to Tacoma and beat Whitey playing anything. Ronnie Allen tried to give him a ball many times and got busted. Another great player in Tacoma was Max Wilson who also owned a pool room. His best playing days were in the 1950's. I played him in 1966 and he could still play one pocket very well. Tommy the Greek was in his seventies when I met him in 1966 and he played great one pocket. In 1968 I staked him against Denny Searcy and he beat Denny out of $240 and $20 a game and made Denny say uncle. I think Jay Swanson could play anybody and hold his own. Being a big guy myself, I really appreciated how well Jay played for a fat guy.

I could go on an on about west coast guys but when it came to nine ball, the west coast players dominated in the 1960's.


Jerry, I respect you and your opinion but when you say that the west coast players dominated 9ball in the 60's that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think.?


Early in the 60's, players like Luther Lassiter--Ed Kelly--Ed Taylor--Harold Worst---Craig Stevens

Later in the 60's there were also great 9ball players like myself, Bernie Schwartz, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall and you can also throw in Jim Marino, Jim Rempe, and Wade Crane.

I don't believe the west coast dominated.:heh:p :sorry

Stay healthy,
Bill Incardona
 

TomRoden

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Joe Veasy ????

Joe Veasy ????

When did Joe Veasy die ?? I played him in Metuchen at Benny's place.What a character !!
Two everybody missed,
Silver Lake from Providence,RI.
and Ronnie "Tallman" Merriweather, too.
 

onepocket926

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From
Anderson, CA
There are a lot of great stories and great players mentioned. i also have a few overlooked players.
How about Richie Florence? No one could out gamble Richie and there was never a better pool tournament promoter then he. If he was alive today I guarantee there would be some serious money added to tournaments.
.

....I knew Ritchie in the early 70's.....bought a cue from Him....when He busted out in a week long Payball game....at Vern Petersons place in Bellflower, CA......one of (if not) the greatest 9 ball player(s) on a bar box....

......but, don't forget there were...also some great "under the Radar" players...in that era also.....players that didn't want to advertise....they quietly took Your money and left You with a smile on your face...while You thanked them for the games......not at all like Ritchie and Ronnie Allen...that always did a Victory Lap around the Table...after they robbed You :lol

.....one Player named Alberto Florez...also called Nica or Nicaraguan Al (probably so other Players wouldn't confuse Him with Mexican Al), or as Ritchie and Ronnie....called him....just plain Nic.......used to beat both Ronnie and Ritchie playing 8/9 ball on a pretty regular basis....Al would...immediately take the winnings to the track...and promptly go tap.....which is also what Ronnie would do with His winnings.....

.....Al would always play them in an obscure out of the way Mexican bar......so if anyone in the bar saw Him win the money...they wouldn't know He was beating a Champion....they just thought He beat a couple of "white Boys"...out of their paychecks.....:heh
 

onepocket926

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Anderson, CA
[/SIZE][/B]
Jerry, I respect you and your opinion but when you say that the west coast players dominated 9ball in the 60's that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think.?


Early in the 60's, players like Luther Lassiter--Ed Kelly--Ed Taylor--Harold Worst---Craig Stevens

Later in the 60's there were also great 9ball players like myself, Bernie Schwartz, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall and you can also throw in Jim Marino, Jim Rempe, and Wade Crane.

I don't believe the west coast dominated.:heh:p :sorry

Stay healthy,
Bill Incardona

...I think You're probably right....but, had You been born and raised on the West Coast....We'd have had one more great Player.......and You might be singing a different tune.....:lol

......We certainly had better weather, nicer Beaches, and more Hippies.....:cool:
 

keoneyo

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I bought my first clue off of Joe Veasey. He got broke and offered me a Paradise cue for $100. I broke him down to $85. It was 1969 and I was a kid.
I was broke too but man that cue was beautiful. I got a great hit off it. When Joe gave it to me he said "Well got rid of that dog". I guess he blamed his loss on the stick.
I asked John "The Dancer" Brascia what he thought of the stick. John was a big star then dancing in some serious films. He hung out with Jimmy Caan and Phil Spector at the time. 3 guys who loved 9 ball. He looked at me and said. "Kid Im playing for a $100 a game here what do I give a **** about your stick". Welcome to Hollywood.
I got broke and had to sell that cue when rent was due. I was sad. That cue would be worth a lot today.
 

jrhendy

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Placerville, CA
....I knew Ritchie in the early 70's.....bought a cue from Him....when He busted out in a week long Payball game....at Vern Petersons place in Bellflower, CA......one of (if not) the greatest 9 ball player(s) on a bar box....

......but, don't forget there were...also some great "under the Radar" players...in that era also.....players that didn't want to advertise....they quietly took Your money and left You with a smile on your face...while You thanked them for the games......not at all like Ritchie and Ronnie Allen...that always did a Victory Lap around the Table...after they robbed You :lol

.....one Player named Alberto Florez...also called Nica or Nicaraguan Al (probably so other Players wouldn't confuse Him with Mexican Al), or as Ritchie and Ronnie....called him....just plain Nic.......used to beat both Ronnie and Ritchie playing 8/9 ball on a pretty regular basis....Al would...immediately take the winnings to the track...and promptly go tap.....which is also what Ronnie would do with His winnings.....

.....Al would always play them in an obscure out of the way Mexican bar......so if anyone in the bar saw Him win the money...they wouldn't know He was beating a Champion....they just thought He beat a couple of "white Boys"...out of their paychecks.....:heh

I knew Nic well. I beat him out of $500 once in Bellflower playing golf when he was waiting to play Eddie Burton some 9 ball. They played every day for a week and Nic got all the $$.

His eyes went bad and he started dealing cards at one of the clubs around Los Angeles.
 

beatle

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if veasy had the cue he had stolen it from someone.
somehow. just before he would leave a town he would get a few cues from people and tell them he would re-wrap them or put a new tip on for free. then he was gone and so were the cues.
 

beatle

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jimmy caan was a regular way back at 7/11 in new york.
if you werent real sharp you didnt get out with any money. and if you were you only got out with what you came with.
 

onepocket926

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Anderson, CA
I knew Nic well. I beat him out of $500 once in Bellflower playing golf when he was waiting to play Eddie Burton some 9 ball. They played every day for a week and Nic got all the $$.

His eyes went bad and he started dealing cards at one of the clubs around Los Angeles.

...that's Him.....I haven't seen Him in a few Years....but, last I saw Him.....He was in Santa Rosa, CA......Bud Green might know of His...whereabouts.....

......We were on a BCA Team....together for about 5 years...and tag teamed the local Tourny's ......trading off....1st and 2nd....(if Ya won 2 weeks in a row...You had to sit out a week).....

......We cleaned up on the 8 ball pots......as soon as the pot hit a couple of hundred bucks....He'd pop the 8 in the side.....:lol......He was the only person I ever saw........putting the stall........on the 8 ball break.........waiting for it to go up...:eek:......almost like He could make it on demand....
 

mr3cushion

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Sep 17, 2008
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Cocoa Beach, FL
Great story Bill, and an even better payday!

~Doc

Thanks Doc; Yeh, they don't make spots like those anymore, just like Dr. Bill said, "The internet/cell phones," have taken the element of surprise out of hustling. It's almost impossible to, "sneak up" on a guy!

The last REAL money action I played was in Houston, 2006. I was there on some other business, and we had finished a couple days early, and had heard about the "Main action" room, "Bogies." No billiard tables but, some Gin Rummy action, made a few dollars there. Then we got steered to a Vietnamese room where they are supposed to gamble at 3C.

When you walked in this joint, you could have cut the cigarette smoke with a knife! Dirty, nasty, smelly joint, but, a guy would play 25 points for $300.00. The cloth on the tables was so old it was BLACK, Now, let me tell you, I've got pretty damn good stroke and I had a real difficult time getting 7 cushions.

I hadn't brought a cue with me on this trip, the steer-man had pool cue for me to use, I needed a sledge hammer! Long story short, because NO cue, BAD cloth and I forgot to mention, 10 sweaters/betters standing around the table. With all this, the score was tied 20 a piece, I ran 5 and out, the guy quit and He almost took an ass whipping from the regulars for losing!

There was one regular in the room that spoke understandable English, He steered us to a VERY nice Vietnamese room. The BEST heated European tables, clean, nice people, and real good food! The owner was the BEST player, He's the only one they would let play. We played 50 points for $500.00, very nice guy and player; he even gave me a "Longoni" billiard cue to use. I beat him the game, 50-37, He really didn't want to play anymore, the room was getting too busy, plus privately he told me he knew he couldn't win. But, if we wanted BIG action he would make a call to the Mexican rooms to get me a game in a couple of days. I told him, call me, if we're still here, I'll play.

The next day, we went back to, Bogies; just to hang around for some card action. Nothing happening, met another friend of mine I hadn’t seen in years, I told him I had played some 3C in a couple Asia joints, and did OK. Told him the owner of a nice room that I beat was going to get me some more action. He asked to let him know if I play, He wanted to come and bet on me. Next day, the guy calls me to play a guy from Mexico 50 points for $2,000.00 a game, put up for 2 games, I said OK. I call my friend and let him know, he met us at the room.

When we got to the room it was packed with, Asians and Mexicans! The player didn’t speak any English; I speak enough Italian and some Spanish to get the job done in most spots. Long story short, my buddy gets down for $500.00 a game and we’re down for the $4,000.00, 2 games ahead. The guy beats me the first game, 50-42! But, I can see I can beat the guy, he got a little lucky down the stretch. Next game, I win, 50-36, third game I win also, 50-40. Now I’m getting back in stroke and need to close out the session, and I beat the guy 50-32, and the corporation quit! We had appointments in Tulsa, in a couple days, so we left the Houston area and drove up there. Never expected to get any billiard action on that trip, but you never know, what’ll pop up!
 
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bstroud

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Anyone here spend any time at the Billiard Den.

That's where I stayed for awhile and played with Harry the Horse, Marvin and a lot of other players.

Spector was a regular as was Savalis, Joey Bishop, Peter Folk and many other movie people.

Action every day and night.

I was staying at the Gene Autry hotel. A guy named Jim asked me if I wanted to stay at his place in the Hollywood hills. I was a little wary but went to see what it looked like. Walked in the front door and you could see through to the pool. In the pool were 3 naked good looking women. Turns out Jim was in the Porno business.

I stayed there for two weeks before I left town.

The Billiard Den was a great pool room.

Bill S.
 

Mkbtank

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Philly Pa
Players, Hustlers,Stakehorses and others

if veasy had the cue he had stolen it from someone.

somehow. just before he would leave a town he would get a few cues from people and tell them he would re-wrap them or put a new tip on for free. then he was gone and so were the cues.


That's messed up.
 

NH Steve

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New Hampshire
Anyone here spend any time at the Billiard Den.

That's where I stayed for awhile and played with Harry the Horse, Marvin and a lot of other players.

Spector was a regular as was Savalis, Joey Bishop, Peter Folk and many other movie people.

Action every day and night.

I was staying at the Gene Autry hotel. A guy named Jim asked me if I wanted to stay at his place in the Hollywood hills. I was a little wary but went to see what it looked like. Walked in the front door and you could see through to the pool. In the pool were 3 naked good looking women. Turns out Jim was in the Porno business.

I stayed there for two weeks before I left town.

The Billiard Den was a great pool room.

Bill S.
I know Freddy did. I believe the Ghost did too when he lived out in CA.

Was this the place?
 

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baby huey

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Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
[/SIZE][/B]
Jerry, I respect you and your opinion but when you say that the west coast players dominated 9ball in the 60's that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think.?


Early in the 60's, players like Luther Lassiter--Ed Kelly--Ed Taylor--Harold Worst---Craig Stevens

Later in the 60's there were also great 9ball players like myself, Bernie Schwartz, Steve Mizerak, Buddy Hall and you can also throw in Jim Marino, Jim Rempe, and Wade Crane.

I don't believe the west coast dominated.

Stay healthy,
Bill Incardona


BIll, I must say I forgot to mention that YOU should have been included in the mix. I saw you play some great nine ball at Bellflower in the late 1960's when I was running with Hawaiian Brian. We avoided you and for good reason. But back to your commentary, Ed Kelly was a West Coast guy by that time and i think your list is a good one it's just that the group of home grown players from the West Coast. Cole, Swannee, Hawaiian Brian, Denny Searcy, Sergio, Mario, Ritchie and a cast of dozens who played very well but not world class also resided in the area. Frank the Barber, Little Al Romero were tough guys to beat and must also be included in this list. I think Ed Taylor and Luther Lassiter probably were on their way down skill wise by the late sixties but I could be wrong on that count. Hadn't Harold Worst died at this time?

I can't remember anyone going to the Tropicana Bowl and beating Ritchie even up and I saw quite a few matches he had there. He would have played anyone even there and you could win a ton if you could beat him. I am a homer and I probably should be a bit more open minded about some of the great players you mentioned. You are our resident expert and I have tremendous respect for you and your knowledge about the game we love.
 

bstroud

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Jimmy Marino played as well or better than anyone during that time period. So did Billy Incardona, Bernie Swartz, Jimmy Reid, Rempe, Buddy, Toby Sweet (I don't thing anyone could beat him) and tons of others not from the west coast.

With the exception of Florence I consider the West Coast players inferior to the East Coast players. Most were about the speed of Billy Johnson. Toby gave him the 8 and robbed him in Atlanta.

Bill S.
 

jrhendy

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Jimmy Marino played as well or better than anyone during that time period. So did Billy Incardona, Bernie Swartz, Jimmy Reid, Rempe, Buddy, Toby Sweet (I don't thing anyone could beat him) and tons of others not from the west coast.

With the exception of Florence I consider the West Coast players inferior to the East Coast players. Most were about the speed of Billy Johnson. Toby gave him the 8 and robbed him in Atlanta.

Bill S.

Toby was a master at the old shootout rules. I found this out a little too late. He came to Hard Times in Bellflower around 1990 and I beat him a set for $500, Texas Express rules. He offered to play another set with the old shootout rules and I agreed. I knew he could play, he came in with Cuban Joe, but after I won the first set I figured I had a free shot at $1,000.

It was no contest and he BBQ'd me. I know he wasn't the monster he was in the earlier years, but he still could play.
 

onepocket926

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Toby was a master at the old shootout rules. I found this out a little too late. He came to Hard Times in Bellflower around 1990 and I beat him a set for $500, Texas Express rules. He offered to play another set with the old shootout rules and I agreed. I knew he could play, he came in with Cuban Joe, but after I won the first set I figured I had a free shot at $1,000.

It was no contest and he BBQ'd me. I know he wasn't the monster he was in the earlier years, but he still could play.

...such a damn shame...they changed to express rules....I know they needed to shorten up the matches for TV...but, it changed the strategies....so radically .....it opened up a completely new way of looking at the table......

......three foul losses were few and far between......most players didn't even consider three fouling for the win......until their opponent made a gross error...and gave up ball in hand...after the second foul (the pushout was actually a foul with no penalty ...giving the option to the incoming shooter).........now they look for it from the break....

...I wonder if with the old shootout rules...a lot of todays champions.....could have prevailed against some of the players of yesteryear.....

....I'd be willing to bet....your second set...took quite a bit longer to play....:D
 

bstroud

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I played Toby even 9 ball in the mid 60's at Park Row Billiards in Manhattan.

I was from the South and had not played much push out.

Toby won every push out and had me 8 games loser at $50 a game.

Neither of us had missed one ball.

I finally had had it with push out. The next time I needed to push out I pushed out for an end rail bank. He said shoot and I made it and ran out.

I did this 3 times and he quit me 5 games winner. Said he would play some more over at 7/11 his home court.

I said see you later.

He was the only 9 ball player I ever played that I didn't think I could beat. He played perfect position and played the best push out I ever saw.

Bill S.
 
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