Players, Hustlers,Stakehorses and others

Artie Bodendorfer

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Jimmy Marino played as well or better than anyone during that time period. So did Billy Incardona, Bernie Swartz, Jimmy Reid, Rempe, Buddy, Toby Sweet (I don't thing anyone could beat him) and tons of others not from the west coast.

With the exception of Florence I consider the West Coast players inferior to the East Coast players. Most were about the speed of Billy Johnson. Toby gave him the 8 and robbed him in Atlanta.

Bill S.
I remember hustling down South with Frosty.And Frosty lived is Sumington Alabama. A dry county. And we went to some bars in mobile Alabama and I seen Jr. Swetmen. He didn't no me and I didn't say high to him. But he was a real good bar player. Back in his Chicago days.

Then I seen him again in Las Vegas Years latter. At the Riviera Casino bar tournament. And he said high to Ronnie Allen. And Ronnie remember me. And Ronnie didn't say anything to him. But I new who he was. He was Jr Swettman a very good bar players. I new a lot of players who didn't no me. And i new them. Just like Jr Hentzan. He was another good bar player.
 

androd

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New Braunfels tx.
Toby was a master at the old shootout rules. I found this out a little too late. He came to Hard Times in Bellflower around 1990 and I beat him a set for $500, Texas Express rules. He offered to play another set with the old shootout rules and I agreed. I knew he could play, he came in with Cuban Joe, but after I won the first set I figured I had a free shot at $1,000.

It was no contest and he BBQ'd me. I know he wasn't the monster he was in the earlier years, but he still could play.

He came to the LeCue in houston in the 70's. He didn't get to beat any of the champs. All the 2nd tier players beat him. He said he was broke. I asked him to go to a spot in Texas City, on the waterfront. He looked perfect bell bottomed denims and a peacoat. We won about $800.00 and went back to LeCue, he asked if I wanted in as he was gonna get his money back. I said no I'm going to get some sleep. He lost what he had won and left town. Spinning the ball didn't work on the wet tables there.
Rod.
P.S. He lost to James Christopher, Tall Jimmy, Grady, Duke Dowell and Jeff Sparks. He never got to Greg stevens, Jersey Red. Danny Jones etc.
 

wincardona

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Dallas Tx.
He came to the LeCue in houston in the 70's. He didn't get to beat any of the champs. All the 2nd tier players beat him. He said he was broke. I asked him to go to a spot in Texas City, on the waterfront. He looked perfect bell bottomed denims and a peacoat. We won about $800.00 and went back to LeCue, he asked if I wanted in as he was gonna get his money back. I said no I'm going to get some sleep. He lost what he had won and left town. Spinning the ball didn't work on the wet tables there.
Rod.
P.S. He lost to James Christopher, Tall Jimmy, Grady, Duke Dowell and Jeff Sparks. He never got to Greg stevens, Jersey Red. Danny Jones etc.

I would never dispute any thing you say about the history of our game, especially if you witnessed it first hand. However, Toby Sweet, the player I know is a much better player than he showed in Houston..who knows why he played poorly. I have watched Toby play many times and never have I seen him play poorly but he's allowed like every one else.

Bill Incardona
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Ghosttown
Anyone here spend any time at the Billiard Den.

That's where I stayed for awhile and played with Harry the Horse, Marvin and a lot of other players.

Spector was a regular as was Savalis, Joey Bishop, Peter Folk and many other movie people.

Action every day and night.

The Billiard Den was a great pool room.

Bill S.


I know Freddy did. I believe the Ghost did too when he lived out in CA.


I spent several months in 1967, and several months in 1969 living in L.A. and hanging out at Ye Billiard Den...It was a great poolroom, with a ton of action, good looking women, and celebrities there...I had the time of my life and could tell a lot of wild stories...

And I had it made because I met a beautiful girl who lived in the gardener's cottage of a mansion, 1 block from the poolroom at 915 Kings Road, and I moved in with her...doesn't get any better than that - living with a gorgeous girl, just 1 block from a great poolroom.

- Ghost

PS, Here's a pic of me back then standing in the living room of that gardener's cottage ----->
 

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FastEddieF.

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I saw Toby play for about a week giving up the 3-5-7ball in 9 ball push out rules beating guys who never would bet on anything, locksmiths and knockers. Toby won about 8 K. this was in the late 70'S He played the best position in 9 ball I ever saw, like putting the cue on a string, what a touch. We matched up him giving me the 5 and all the breaks, I thought nobody could beat me that way. Toby always pushed out to play safe. we put up 500 a race to 7.when a guy he beat the day before came in , Toby ask me if we could play tomorrow , I said no problem. He won another 1200. We never played. Years later I played David Howard for 500 a set race to 5, with the 5 and all breaks. We started out playing on a table with new cloth, he won the first 4 games, it took me an hour to get even. The owner made us get off the table because he had a big tournament going on. We played on another table with old cloth, I broke 5 games in a row without making a ball, he ran out the 5 games. So I realized the 5 and the break doesn't mean anything if you don't make a ball on the break. This took place after David won the U.S.Open 9 Ball championship. It's the old story if you think you got the nuts, it doesn't mean you got to win.
 

bstroud

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I saw Toby play for about a week giving up the 3-5-7ball in 9 ball push out rules beating guys who never would bet on anything, locksmiths and knockers. Toby won about 8 K. this was in the late 70'S He played the best position in 9 ball I ever saw, like putting the cue on a string, what a touch. We matched up him giving me the 5 and all the breaks, I thought nobody could beat me that way. Toby always pushed out to play safe. we put up 500 a race to 7.when a guy he beat the day before came in , Toby ask me if we could play tomorrow , I said no problem. He won another 1200. We never played. Years later I played David Howard for 500 a set race to 5, with the 5 and all breaks. We started out playing on a table with new cloth, he won the first 4 games, it took me an hour to get even. The owner made us get off the table because he had a big tournament going on. We played on another table with old cloth, I broke 5 games in a row without making a ball, he ran out the 5 games. So I realized the 5 and the break doesn't mean anything if you don't make a ball on the break. This took place after David won the U.S.Open 9 Ball championship. It's the old story if you think you got the nuts, it doesn't mean you got to win.

That's what Toby did to me. He rolled out to play safe.
When I couldn't take it anymore I just started to bank.
He didn't like it.

After I started making cues in Balt. Toby passed through on the way South.

A few weeks later he called me from Atlanta to see if I could steer him. I asked how he was doing and he said he had given a guy the 8 the night before and won $2800. I asked him who he had played. He said Billy Johnson.

I had to sit down.

He had ruined all his action.

Bill S.
 

bstroud

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While we are talking about players one player comes to mind.

When I was hustling Balt. long before the cues I played at the Plaza poolroom downtown.

There was a guy there named Seymore that I would play when things were slow.

He would only play for 25 cents per game 9 ball. He never missed a ball.

I found out later that Ed Kelly had played him a lot when he lived there.

He couldn't beat him either.

The best we could do was a draw.

Bill S.
 

androd

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New Braunfels tx.
I would never dispute any thing you say about the history of our game, especially if you witnessed it first hand. However, Toby Sweet, the player I know is a much better player than he showed in Houston..who knows why he played poorly. I have watched Toby play many times and never have I seen him play poorly but he's allowed like every one else.

Bill Incardona

Maybe it was a different Toby ? Does the bell bottoms, a lincoln and a nice looking ladyfriend sound familiar ?
Rod.
P.S. Really wet tables do affect some of us.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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I spent several months in 1967, and several months in 1969 living in L.A. and hanging out at Ye Billiard Den...It was a great poolroom, with a ton of action, good looking women, and celebrities there...I had the time of my life and could tell a lot of wild stories...

And I had it made because I met a beautiful girl who lived in the gardener's cottage of a mansion, 1 block from the poolroom at 915 Kings Road, and I moved in with her...doesn't get any better than that - living with a gorgeous girl, just 1 block from a great poolroom.

- Ghost

PS, Here's a pic of me back then standing in the living room of that gardener's cottage ----->
Know that's a real cool guy. From the seventies. You were ready for vietnam. And the big concerts. That was a great time in my life. The people the music and the whole country was changing. And even Bob dylan.

The times they are a changing. Your not heavy your my brother. The music was great. Today they shave there heads and were there paints bellow there knees. There rely cool. But that will change soon.
 

vapros

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May 24, 2004
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baton rouge, la
I wish someone here would sort out the Tobys for us. I'm aware that a player named Toby Sweet was often in action - mostly in the east and south? I've also heard stories about another Toby in Vegas, who had a number of epic battles with Jack Cooney, but I don't know his name. Were there any others?
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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I wish someone here would sort out the Tobys for us. I'm aware that a player named Toby Sweet was often in action - mostly in the east and south? I've also heard stories about another Toby in Vegas, who had a number of epic battles with Jack Cooney, but I don't know his name. Were there any others?

Toby was a great all around players. One pocket Nine ball Bank pool Golf on a snooker table and golf course. Played good 3 cushion billiards. And As far as I am concerned he was the best one handed player of his time. And he played all the top players. In like 3 months.Scott Gab Cliff Hopkins Jack. And a real good bank pool player. Toby played every day. And never said no to anyone who wanted to play. He came from the same place Ronnie Allen came from. Oklahoma.
And they had some great one pocket players from Oklahoma. And he was a wrestling champion. For the University of Oklahoma. And he bet his own money. He was a very hard player. and didn't like to loose. He played as good as any of the players. Playing one pocket and bank pool. Nine hall I would say he was one level behind the top players. And he was still improving. And he could play for a long time.
 

keoneyo

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I spent several months in 1967, and several months in 1969 living in L.A. and hanging out at Ye Billiard Den...It was a great poolroom, with a ton of action, good looking women, and celebrities there...I had the time of my life and could tell a lot of wild stories...

And I had it made because I met a beautiful girl who lived in the gardener's cottage of a mansion, 1 block from the poolroom at 915 Kings Road, and I moved in with her...doesn't get any better than that - living with a gorgeous girl, just 1 block from a great poolroom.

- Ghost

PS, Here's a pic of me back then standing in the living room of that gardener's cottage ----->

Ghost I didn't know you hung out there. I was living there from 1967 to 1971.
I lived on Hayvenhurst right behind the Starwood nite club. I had the graveyard shift at the Book Circus up the street. I played Richard Pryor straight pool one night there and watched every hustler known to man pass through.
Hawaiian Brian, Pancho, Richie Ambrose, Crazy Bruce, Brooklyn Butch, Dalton Leong, Marvin Henderson, Freddy, Little Franky, Hollywood Jack, Lenny Moore, Cuban Joe, Bernie Schwartz, Jerry the Greek and his dog King, Cripple Shorty, etc. etc. I played every nite with an old black man Mr Murray who loved one pocket and he was teaching me the game for $2 a game. I finally beat him and he stopped playing me.
I learned every swindle and con known to man in that joint.
Telly Savalas was there and I met him again 10 years later when I did a Kojak with him. Also Jimmy Caan who I then worked with him in Alien Nation and Honeymoon in Las Vegas. His brother was a degenerate gambler and was there every nite. Jim Garner would pop in every now and then and so would Neil Young. It was a crazy time and will never happen again. And it helped me in the acting game particularly when I had to negotiate a contract with some of Hollywoods finest.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Ghost I didn't know you hung out there. I was living there from 1967 to 1971.

Also Jimmy Caan who I then worked with him in Alien Nation and Honeymoon in Las Vegas. His brother was a degenerate gambler and was there every nite.

Hey Keone....maybe we met each other back then and don't remember...:frus...

Yeah, I knew his brother - Ronnie Caan - I won $$$ from him on a regular basis, he was a fish...

I've even got a few pics from back then...here's one from 1969 taken at Irv's, directly across the street from the poolroom - Irv's had the greatest burgers and the unusual/delicious thing was that they served them on a Kaiser roll instead of a hamburger bun - Irv served them on the Kaiser roll cuz he was an old time New York deli guy...

In the picture, the black guy with the afro on the far left was Winston - Steve in the middle - and Amy on the right..Amy was some movie producer's daughter - She was hanging around at the pool hall a lot. Did you know any of those three?

- Ghost
 

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keoneyo

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Hey Keone....maybe we met each other back then and don't remember...:frus...

Yeah, I knew his brother - Ronnie Caan - I won $$$ from him on a regular basis, he was a fish...

I've even got a few pics from back then...here's one from 1969 taken at Irv's, directly across the street from the poolroom - Irv's had the greatest burgers and the unusual/delicious thing was that they served them on a Kaiser roll instead of a hamburger bun - Irv served them on the Kaiser roll cuz he was an old time New York deli guy...

In the picture, the black guy with the afro on the far left was Winston - Steve in the middle - and Amy on the right..Amy was some movie producer's daughter - She was hanging around at the pool hall a lot. Did you know any of those three?

- Ghost

Yeah Irvs was right next to the Raincheck room. Diliberto used to take his breaks there. A lot of deals went down there. I remember Winston. Another black guy that used to hang out there was JJ. He did all the video tapes in the early years of the matches. He now works for Ernie at Gina cue as security.

I remember when Cecil Tugwell got out of the army he used to play on the back table. He was the sweetest kid. Then he got into drugs and just turned into a different animal. One of the most talented guys I ever seen.

You remember Black Rudy? He was always flush and liked to bet high.Lenny Moore also had a lot of heart. Some real tough characters.
 

Mkbtank

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Philly Pa
Players, Hustlers,Stakehorses and others

Ghost I didn't know you hung out there. I was living there from 1967 to 1971.

I lived on Hayvenhurst right behind the Starwood nite club. I had the graveyard shift at the Book Circus up the street. I played Richard Pryor straight pool one night there and watched every hustler known to man pass through.

Hawaiian Brian, Pancho, Richie Ambrose, Crazy Bruce, Brooklyn Butch, Dalton Leong, Marvin Henderson, Freddy, Little Franky, Hollywood Jack, Lenny Moore, Cuban Joe, Bernie Schwartz, Jerry the Greek and his dog King, Cripple Shorty, etc. etc. I played every nite with an old black man Mr Murray who loved one pocket and he was teaching me the game for $2 a game. I finally beat him and he stopped playing me.

I learned every swindle and con known to man in that joint.

Telly Savalas was there and I met him again 10 years later when I did a Kojak with him. Also Jimmy Caan who I then worked with him in Alien Nation and Honeymoon in Las Vegas. His brother was a degenerate gambler and was there every nite. Jim Garner would pop in every now and then and so would Neil Young. It was a crazy time and will never happen again. And it helped me in the acting game particularly when I had to negotiate a contract with some of Hollywoods finest.


Keone,

Was jimmy Caan a good player? Of the actors you know who shoot pool, who would you say are the best?
 

mr3cushion

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Cocoa Beach, FL
Doc Hubert and Howard Hankin again!

Doc Hubert and Howard Hankin again!

I should of posted this story in this thread to begin with, it belongs over here.

In Chicago, there have been many fascinating characters, as I’m sure there were in many other cities. One of them that have hung around the edges of the gambling and pool world for years is brilliant guy named, “Doc” Hubert.” As of recently one of the former owners of Chris’s Billiards in Chicago. Doc was actually a REAL doctor, been retired now for about 7 years. He’s been a BIG pool bug and sports better his entire life, one of the REALLY unusually strange birds around is Howard Hanken. He’s worked at the ball parks for years selling beer and programs.

Howard is a really huge White Sox fan, and he and Doc always were making bets with each other. This one particular game was in the early fall, a night game at Sox park. Howard took the Sox and Doc had the other team, the weather turns bad before the game starts and it’s called off. Tomorrow both teams play again with the same pitchers. During towards the end of the game, 8th inning, Howard calls up Doc and says, “We got action, right same pitchers!” Doc tells him, “We got NO action, NO bet,” and hangs up the phone.

At that time, Doc was the head doctor at the psychiatric floor at the VA hospital. That evening one of the nurses on the floor grabs Doc and tells him there’s a man here to see him, he name is Howard Hankin. Howard comes from around the corner starts yelling, “We had action, and you owe me money!” Doc tells him, “Get out of here Howard I don’t owe you anything, and go away!” Howard refuses and starts screaming at the top of his lungs, “He’s NO Doctor, He’s NO Doctor, He’s a bookmaker, give me my money, you thief!”

Well Doc had enough of Howard and called for security, when they showed up, Doc begins to explain to them that, “This man is a mental patient of mine, and he needs to put in a straight-jacket, and locked up in a room until I finish my shift.” “Then I’ll take him to Walter Reed for a more extensive psychiatric evaluation!” So, they hall off Howard in a straight-jacket to a rubber room. Now, Doc’s shift doesn’t end till midnight, during that 6 or 7 hours, the nurses would have enter Howard’s rubber room to feed him by hand.

When Doc finished his shift, he went down where Howard was being held and asked him, “You going to behave yourself and NOT cause another scene,” If so, I’ll have them let you out of the room and jacket.” If, NOT, I’ll see you in the morning!” Howard timidly replied, “NO, NO, Doc, I’ll behave. Please let me out, I’ll be good!” They let Howard out, and Doc gave him a ride home.

Just another couple of, “Zanies’” that hung around pool rooms and gambling joints in Chi-Town!
 

One Pocket Ghost

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And Keone..check this out...unbelievably, 47 years later I've still got my t-shirt :eek: I wonder if anybody else does? ---->
 

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onepocket926

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Anderson, CA
Toby was a great all around players. One pocket Nine ball Bank pool Golf on a snooker table and golf course. Played good 3 cushion billiards. And As far as I am concerned he was the best one handed player of his time. And he played all the top players. In like 3 months.Scott Gab Cliff Hopkins Jack. And a real good bank pool player. Toby played every day. And never said no to anyone who wanted to play. He came from the same place Ronnie Allen came from. Oklahoma.
And they had some great one pocket players from Oklahoma. And he was a wrestling champion. For the University of Oklahoma. And he bet his own money. He was a very hard player. and didn't like to loose. He played as good as any of the players. Playing one pocket and bank pool. Nine hall I would say he was one level behind the top players. And he was still improving. And he could play for a long time.

...I would have enjoyed seeing Him play.....

......in the late 60's....I always thought Ronnie Allen was top dog....at one handed jacked-up....least wise playing one handed was a very big part of His Prop games......

......I once watched Him playing run-out one handed pay ball on a 5x10....granted the other guy had no chance...or Ronnie wouldn't have spotted Him....but, RA....never missed a ball.......He would break, make a ball and run-out (draw, force follow, extreme right and left, curving and jumping)....over and over and over again....... 'till this guy finally woke up and quit Him.....:frus....and during this whole exhibition......Ronnie never shut His mouth....:lol.....heee hawing this guy relentlessly.... :heh..... and trying to match-up with every passerby.....

....I'm not so sure that wasn't the real magic of Ronnie's game.......hypnotizing His opponents until they went empty....:eek:
 
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