Slept Ball penalties? loss of game? Concession?

SactownTom

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The recent thread about the 'loss of game' because a player moved 2 or more balls has brought up an interesting point.

By the rules it is a forfeit when a player moves (rakes 2 or more) balls thinking he has won the game, when in fact he still needs to meet the game's required number of balls.

There seems to be a 'timing' issue with Roy's explanation. He says he moved his ball on the score string, then raked two or more balls at the SAME time John was checking to see if Roy count was correct. Roy was then racking the RAKED balls when John saw the Coin. This is when the ref was called to make the ruling.


I think we all agree that Roy made a mistake that should be penalized.
I also think that the loss of game was not a fair ruling.

Changing the rules to spot up a ball as soon as you make a ball is VERY unfair to the player sitting. A shooting player should not be adding balls in the playing area when he is still shooting.

Playing the game over isn't fair to the non-shooting player, what has he done to deserve this 'penalty'? He doesn't deserve to win a game this way either.

Solutions? (Tournament rules only)

A game can only end when both players agree the game ending conditions are met. It is a simple thing to ask your opponent one time.. Game over? if he answers YES. The game is OVER. if he answers NO he also has to explain why. Ball count, coins on the table, it doesn't matter. Once the non-shooting player agrees it is over.

Let's try to keep this simple. No one should lose a game like this and no one should win a game like this.

Play the game out and let both players agree it is over.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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SactownTom said:
The recent thread about the 'loss of game' because a player moved 2 or more balls has brought up an interesting point.

By the rules it is a forfeit when a player moves (rakes 2 or more) balls thinking he has won the game, when in fact he still needs to meet the game's required number of balls.

There seems to be a 'timing' issue with Roy's explanation. He says he moved his ball on the score string, then raked two or more balls at the SAME time John was checking to see if Roy count was correct. Roy was then racking the RAKED balls when John saw the Coin. This is when the ref was called to make the ruling.


I think we all agree that Roy made a mistake that should be penalized.
I also think that the loss of game was not a fair ruling.

Changing the rules to spot up a ball as soon as you make a ball is VERY unfair to the player sitting. A shooting player should not be adding balls in the playing area when he is still shooting.

Playing the game over isn't fair to the non-shooting player, what has he done to deserve this 'penalty'? He doesn't deserve to win a game this way either.

Solutions? (Tournament rules only)

A game can only end when both players agree the game ending conditions are met. It is a simple thing to ask your opponent one time.. Game over? if he answers YES. The game is OVER. if he answers NO he also has to explain why. Ball count, coins on the table, it doesn't matter. Once the non-shooting player agrees it is over.

Let's try to keep this simple. No one should lose a game like this and no one should win a game like this.

Play the game out and let both players agree it is over.
That is good if both players would talk about it and agree. But if a player can get over the other player most players will take advantage of the mistake. Thats what happened. And I am talking about the first ball you make the other player gets the ball you owe. And is spooted after you are done shooting. Not spot the ball up wright away. And I said you could also spot it up wright away thier is nothing wrong with that and its the same for both players. And both players knoweing that the first ball the make will get spotted will play acordingly. And spotting the ball wright away may not help the shooter because thier are more balls on the table but it could help him. But the rule is fair and the same for both people. And the way I would do it is give my opponent the ball you owe and when you are done shooting spot it up. And that is not a harsh and sever rule. And its very simple. Your opponent holds the first ball you make. And if the use this rule thier doesnt even have to be any coversation. Just hand your opponent the ball you owe. Or the opponent can stand up and you will no wright away why he is standing up. This is all about oweing a ball. And what is the best way to pay the ball you owe.
 

Mike

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In my opinion I think the timing aspect from "string" count to racking is of no consequence. I feel the player who owes the ball, and only him, is responsible for spotting the ball otherwise it's loss of game if he rakes and it's proven he owes. This places the burden on only one person (the one responsible for the ball in the first place) and eliminates any discussion between players who have a vested interested in the outcome. It's been known for an owing player to rack knowing full well he owes hoping the other guy breaks before it's caught.
 

SactownTom

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Mike said:
In my opinion I think the timing aspect from "string" count to racking is of no consequence.
I agree to a point. But, the fact that two or more balls were moved is covered under rules 10.1 and 10.2 that rule for forfeiture.

I feel the player who owes the ball, and only him, is responsible for spotting the ball otherwise it's loss of game if he rakes and it's proven he owes. This places the burden on only one person (the one responsible for the ball in the first place) and eliminates any discussion between players who have a vested interested in the outcome.

also covered under rules 10.1 and 10.2, and I also agree it is the player's responsibility.


It's been known for an owing player to rack knowing full well he owes hoping the other guy breaks before it's caught.

Unsportsmanlike actions like this are penalized by disqualifications from tournament conditions... and if caught doing this when gambling I think a DQ would be much more pleasant than what could happen in most places.

Bottom line... it is the player's responsibility. Lack of memory and good judgement is no excuse for not following the rules and checking your score.

I don't think any changes in the rules are needed, just more players need to follow and KNOW the rules.
 

gulfportdoc

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
Your opponent holds the first ball you make. And if the use this rule thier doesnt even have to be any coversation. Just hand your opponent the ball you owe. Or the opponent can stand up and you will no wright away why he is standing up. This is all about oweing a ball. And what is the best way to pay the ball you owe.
That's a reasonable solution, Artie. But what is the solution when the players forget to do that?

Doc
 

Cal

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Slept Ball penalties? loss of game? Concession?

You need to know the rules in both tournament & Gambling . Here we have the house rules posted,but when Gambling you must establish if your playing house rules or not ,because when gambling some players don't play the 3 foul rule which is a loss of game (house rules ) Its best to know which rules your playing ,saves a lot of unnecessary conflicts
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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SactownTom said:
Doc,

What was it that makes you say that the the Ref didn't know the rules?
Even when referees no the rules the still give the wrong decision. And you see it more in spots then any other game. The bottom line is human beings make mistakes. And I do no when a rule needs to be changed . Because it does to much damage and you should not loose the game and session after running 8 and out. And it was a mistake roy made but even if a player makes a mistake. You have to use some discression and rule in his favor even if that is the rule. Everything is not echet in stone. And the referee could have been more liberal. But I dont no how smart or swift the referee was. And he could have given roy a breack and over ruled the rule. Because thats what judges do every day.And the referee could have told the other player I am awarding Roy the game because he could have made another ball easy. And the tap if thier was one would have showed that. And it would have come down to the 5 game witch would have given both players a chance. But the referee didnt see it or wasant strong enough to make that decision. Roy if I were you I would campain to change the rule. Not that it will help you in the future or help your last session. But it will make it better for the next generatiopn. And the future tournaments. And it will make a difference. And you will feell good about it yourself. THat you helped to change the rule that cost you the game and session. You have my support and I no how you feel. But thier are a lot more tournaments comming up. And if nothing else we all learned. Stay with it YOU will be OK.
 

gulfportdoc

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SactownTom said:
Doc, What was it that makes you say that the the Ref didn't know the rules?
He didn't know the rules because of two reasons: He didn't know what to do in that situation; and he then allowed the opponent to make the decision, which should never happen.

Doc
 

NH Steve

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SactownTom said:
Solutions? (Tournament rules only)

A game can only end when both players agree the game ending conditions are met. It is a simple thing to ask your opponent one time.. Game over? if he answers YES. The game is OVER. if he answers NO he also has to explain why. Ball count, coins on the table, it doesn't matter. Once the non-shooting player agrees it is over.

Let's try to keep this simple. No one should lose a game like this and no one should win a game like this.

Play the game out and let both players agree it is over.
What do you think about adding a clear stipulation in the rules that any appeal as to whether a player is out or not has to be raised before the balls are racked for the next game?
 

SactownTom

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Sacramento CA
The ref made the call. "Concession" Loss of game.
That was the correct call.
Is this the situation you refer to?

Or was it when Roy asked the ref if it was ok to play the game over?


gulfportdoc said:
He didn't know the rules because of two reasons: He didn't know what to do in that situation; and he then allowed the opponent to make the decision, which should never happen.

Doc
 

SactownTom

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This sounds good only if the remaining balls on the table haven't been disturbed, or Rules 10.1 and 10.2 will have to be revised to include game ending snafus.

It all changes when two or more balls are disturbed.

NH Steve said:
What do you think about adding a clear stipulation in the rules that any appeal as to whether a player is out or not has to be raised before the balls are racked for the next game?
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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gulfportdoc said:
That's a reasonable solution, Artie. But what is the solution when the players forget to do that?

Doc
THats like saying what if the player forgets to shoot. If both players forget. Then he does not owe a ball. Witch is 100 times better then running 8 and out and loosing the game and session. Dont worry the ball will not be slepte. If I am playing and my opponent makes a ball I make sure that I get that ball. I am not going to reward him. But running 8 and out and loosing the game and session. Is a brutle and horrable rule to loose the match and game. If it happined to you what would you rather have for a rule. You loose the game and the session. Or you play by my rules and you pay the ball you owe. Its not even close. If ypur opponent owes a ball then both of you have to sleep the ball. And its only one ball not 8 balls and the game and the match. DO YOU SEE IT YET. AND IF PEOPLE WERE GAMBLING THIER WOULD BE A BIG ARGUMENT> AND THE PLAYER THAT RAN * AND OUT WOULD NOT PAY OFF. BEcause its to sever of a penalty to pay for oweing one ball. One ball is all that we are talking about. ONe Ball. Ist easy for peopl;e to talk because it didnt happen to you. CHANGE THE RULE OR STAY STUPIED. BECAUSE THE RULE WILL CHANGE ANYWAY. WHY NOT NOW? If you think the old rule is better then thier is nothing else to talk about. And if its not then change it.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
THats like saying what if the player forgets to shoot. If both players forget. Then he does not owe a ball. Witch is 100 times better then running 8 and out and loosing the game and session. Dont worry the ball will not be slepte. If I am playing and my opponent makes a ball I make sure that I get that ball. I am not going to reward him. But running 8 and out and loosing the game and session. Is a brutle and horrable rule to loose the match and game. If it happined to you what would you rather have for a rule. You loose the game and the session. Or you play by my rules and you pay the ball you owe. Its not even close. If ypur opponent owes a ball then both of you have to sleep the ball. And its only one ball not 8 balls and the game and the match. DO YOU SEE IT YET. AND IF PEOPLE WERE GAMBLING THIER WOULD BE A BIG ARGUMENT> AND THE PLAYER THAT RAN * AND OUT WOULD NOT PAY OFF. BEcause its to sever of a penalty to pay for oweing one ball. One ball is all that we are talking about. ONe Ball. Ist easy for peopl;e to talk because it didnt happen to you. CHANGE THE RULE OR STAY STUPIED. BECAUSE THE RULE WILL CHANGE ANYWAY. WHY NOT NOW? If you think the old rule is better then thier is nothing else to talk about. And if its not then change it.
WE can take it to the suprem court.
 

gulfportdoc

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NH Steve said:
What do you think about adding a clear stipulation in the rules that any appeal as to whether a player is out or not has to be raised before the balls are racked for the next game?
Yes, that could be added in some way to 10.1. That would eliminate the possibility of gamesmanship on that issue.;) The 10.2 wordage could remain the same.

Doc
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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gulfportdoc said:
Yes, that could be added in some way to 10.1. That would eliminate the possibility of gamesmanship on that issue.;) The 10.2 wordage could remain the same.

Doc
The appeal will only help if someone asks. Or none of the balls are moved. As soon as the game is over in the players mind and he grabs the balls to rack its to late. Unless you have some kind of replay. Were all the balls were. Pay the scratch when you make your first ball. And the loss of game will not come into play. Does anyone have any reason that the player who owes a ball. Pays the ball with the first ball he makes. And as soon as he pays the ball. It goes back to 8 to 8. ITs very easy. And it eliminates the old crap.
 

suki

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Make up your friggin mind

Make up your friggin mind

Artie Bodendorfer said:
The appeal will only help if someone asks. Or none of the balls are moved. As soon as the game is over in the players mind and he grabs the balls to rack its to late. Unless you have some kind of replay. Were all the balls were. Pay the scratch when you make your first ball. And the loss of game will not come into play. Does anyone have any reason that the player who owes a ball. Pays the ball with the first ball he makes. And as soon as he pays the ball. It goes back to 8 to 8. ITs very easy. And it eliminates the old crap.

Which way do you want it? The ball spotted up right away or after the players is done shooting. You keep quoting both ways. Look at post #2.
Spotting it up right away is not an option in 1p in my opinion. If you want the other player to hold the ball until you are done shooting fine but good luck to get players to do that after when it is the shooters responsibility to remember he scratched by checking for a coin that is staring right at him.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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suki said:
Which way do you want it? The ball spotted up right away or after the players is done shooting. You keep quoting both ways. Look at post #2.
Spotting it up right away is not an option in 1p in my opinion. If you want the other player to hold the ball until you are done shooting fine but good luck to get players to do that after when it is the shooters responsibility to remember he scratched by checking for a coin that is staring right at him.
yOU SHOULD READ ALL THE QUOTES IT SAYS THE CAN PLAY IN EITHER WAY. AND ITS EQUAL TO BOTH PLAYERS. And if the player owes a ball and if the other player doesnt get the ball its his mistake and he looses the ball not the game. And I have played thousands of thousands of one pocket games. And I have never got into a disagreement about any rules. And why dont you ask the high roolers in Detroite when thier was a ruling to be made. Who the called. And asked for a decision. I am sure the didnt calll you or billiard Congress of America. And you havant given one Idea howe to change the rule. That is a poor rule. I dont need the rule but other players do. And its a bad rule to loose the game and match. WE no thats the rule. But its a bad rule and needs to be changed. So what happened doesnt happen again. How do you stop what happened to happen again. THats what I am trying to change. And only the people who make the rules can change it. And spoting the ball up wright away is better then the rule the have. Because its the same and fair to both players. Because the rule is the same for both of them.But paying the ball thats owed is a great Idea. And the can discuss when to spot that ball.
 
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