1 pick and the pop

chicagomike · Jan 12, 2015

Is it possible that giving 1 hit and the pick is a bigger spot than one might think?? My thinking is that the person receiving the spot will break harder knowing they can pick off any leaker. I think they would break a tad harder, get more spread of balls on their side...thus making it harder for the player giving the spot to get out of the break. What do you really think that kind of spot is worth??

Scrzbill · Jan 12, 2015

I would think that breaking harder might lead to too many balls leaking out. My
normal break already leaves a tough return shot and being able to pick one off would be better. I played this a long time ago at Whitey's when growing up. More one pocket education this was.

Artie Bodendorfer · Jan 12, 2015

chicagomike said:
Is it possible that giving 1 hit and the pick is a bigger spot than one might think?? My thinking is that the person receiving the spot will break harder knowing they can pick off any leaker. I think they would break a tad harder, get more spread of balls on their side...thus making it harder for the player giving the spot to get out of the break. What do you really think that kind of spot is worth??

The spot is worth more to a better player. Than a weaker player. A good player getting that spot. Should control the whole game. And keep the other player trapped the whole game. And he should get the first shot to run eight

Artie Bodendorfer · Jan 12, 2015

Artie Bodendorfer said:
The spot is worth more to a better player. Than a weaker player. A good player getting that spot. Should control the whole game. And keep the other player trapped the whole game. And he should get the first shot to run eight

I hit the wrong button and it erased what I wrote. Sorry Mike. I will try to finish it latter.

Artie Bodendorfer · Jan 12, 2015

Artie Bodendorfer said:
I hit the wrong button and it erased what I wrote. Sorry Mike. I will try to finish it latter.

Just for some new ideas. Think very carefully before you answer. Look at both sides of the proposition. Witch would you rather have the brake. Or your shoot after the brake and you get to pick a ball????????????

What would be your choice?????????

darmoose · Jan 12, 2015

Artie Bodendorfer said:
The spot is worth more to a better player. Than a weaker player. A good player getting that spot. Should control the whole game. And keep the other player trapped the whole game. And he should get the first shot to run eight

Artie

Is there any spot that is not worth more to a better player than a weaker player?

One Pocket Ghost · Jan 12, 2015

Artie Bodendorfer said:
Just for some new ideas. Think very carefully before you answer. Look at both sides of the proposition. Witch would you rather have the brake. Or your shoot after the brake and you get to pick a ball????????????

What would be your choice?????????

For sure, I will choose to shoot after the break and pick a ball...I would say that with that choice, I will have the best of it in about 8 out of 10 games - only a super-killer break will make me lose my edge, or of course, if my opponent makes a ball on the break.

- Ghost

u12armresl · Jan 12, 2015

I break rail first, and sometimes the corner ball pops out leaving not only 1 ball, but the perfect angle to draw back under and get several more.

Taking that one ball out of the equation would probably mean that someone taps and they are spotting me another ball.

vapros · Jan 12, 2015

I have always had my doubts about the value of the break. Several years ago, I clocked 115 games, in matches on DVD, and between top players. The breaker won 58 times and lost 57. That proves nothing, but it strengthened my argument at the time. I wish somebody would chart 1000 games. Somebody else, of course.

I think it was because the best players are so much better at getting out of the break. With weaker players, the break should be more of an advantage.

wincardona · Jan 13, 2015

Artie Bodendorfer said:
Just for some new ideas. Think very carefully before you answer. Look at both sides of the proposition. Witch would you rather have the brake. Or your shoot after the brake and you get to pick a ball????????????

What would be your choice?????????

This is a very interesting proposition, I would be willing to take either side for a small bet just to experience the outcome. My first inclination would be to be the breaker, but since the Ghost is so adamant about which side he would take it has me wondering.

I would play the Ghost this game, I'll break, Ghost will pick a ball and spot it instead of keeping it, and I will play him 11/8. We play 10/8 which is our steady game, all that is different is I'm breaking and he's off setting the break by picking a ball and spotting it, and I go to eleven instead of ten. Sounds reasonable to me..what do you say Ghost?

Dr. Bill

NH Steve · Jan 13, 2015

When you guys speak of hitting the standard break a little harder, as I think about it, you would also probably want to move your cue ball location closer to the side rail in order to get a fuller contact with the stack and dissipate the extra power a little. Because if you simply hit the standard break harder then the cue ball is liable to end up too high and make it much easier for your opponent to get out of the break, right?

----> Steve, who has never been on either side of a Hit n Pick break handicap

darmoose · Jan 13, 2015

wincardona said:
This is a very interesting proposition, I would be willing to take either side for a small bet just to experience the outcome. My first inclination would be to be the breaker, but since the Ghost is so adamant about which side he would take it has me wondering.

I would play the Ghost this game, I'll break, Ghost will pick a ball and spot it instead of keeping it, and I will play him 11/8. We play 10/8 which is our steady game, all that is different is I'm breaking and he's off setting the break by picking a ball and spotting it, and I go to eleven instead of ten. Sounds reasonable to me..what do you say Ghost?

Dr. Bill

Watch out, I don't think Ghost has seen this yet. I think he will be all over this, Bill.

:heh

LSJohn · Jan 13, 2015

vapros said:
I have always had my doubts about the value of the break. Several years ago, I clocked 115 games, in matches on DVD, and between top players. The breaker won 58 times and lost 57. That proves nothing, but it strengthened my argument at the time. I wish somebody would chart 1000 games. Somebody else, of course.

I think it was because the best players are so much better at getting out of the break. With weaker players, the break should be more of an advantage.

I agree (especially about somebody else charting it.) :heh

chicagomike · Jan 13, 2015

Artie...I like moving a ball and shooting after the break. I think it is much stronger than only getting break and think the person giving the break would definitely get the worst of it. I would venture to say I could get out of just about anyone's break that way....even Ghosty's...with a little luck of course.

NH Steve · Jan 13, 2015

Regarding how much the break is worth statistics...

Regarding how much the break is worth statistics...

LSJohn said:
I agree (especially about somebody else charting it.) :heh

This has come up before, and I also have charted quite a few. I'd have to dig up the numbers but I believe I came up with something closer to 60-40. If we have someone on onepocket.org that likes to wrangle with numbers, I would be willing to share the data I have.

LSJohn · Jan 14, 2015

NH Steve said:
This has come up before, and I also have charted quite a few. I'd have to dig up the numbers but I believe I came up with something closer to 60-40. If we have someone on onepocket.org that likes to wrangle with numbers, I would be willing to share the data I have.

The problem with trying to do it statistically is that it takes so many trials to get into the territory where the ratios are reliable, reducing the possibilties for non-typical sequences to skew the results.

Too many words to say, "Gotta chart LOTS of games," maybe 1000 like vapros said.

Just for grins, what number of balls advantage would you think a 60-40 would reflect. Looks to me that the usual 1.5-ball estimate would be about right, but if it got down to 55-45 it would be 1/2 to 3/4 ball less. Whaddaya think?

Artie Bodendorfer · Jan 15, 2015

wincardona said:
This is a very interesting proposition, I would be willing to take either side for a small bet just to experience the outcome. My first inclination would be to be the breaker, but since the Ghost is so adamant about which side he would take it has me wondering.

I would play the Ghost this game, I'll break, Ghost will pick a ball and spot it instead of keeping it, and I will play him 11/8. We play 10/8 which is our steady game, all that is different is I'm breaking and he's off setting the break by picking a ball and spotting it, and I go to eleven instead of ten. Sounds reasonable to me..what do you say Ghost?
'
Dr. Bill

That's a fair game. And its very close according to the spot you said. You and the ghost play. Her is a little harder game. Ten to eight. And the ghost picks a ball and keeps it. That would mean you get the brake. And you will be playing the ghost 10 to 7. Instead of 11 to 8. What side would you take. Playing someone that you both play even.

Would you take the brake. Or pick a ball. I am just curies. What you would take? Everybody can give there opinion what choice they would want. They brake? OR picking a ball? This would be a good gambling game. And very interesting. Like Billy said. You could even play a tournament. playing this way. And the player that wins the lag or the flip of the coin. Picks what side of the proposition. He wants to pick. Buts a little something new and different in the tournament.

Mkbtank · Jan 15, 2015

1 pick and the pop

Artie Bodendorfer said:
That's a fair game. And its very close according to the spot you said. You and the ghost play. Her is a little harder game. Ten to eight. And the ghost picks a ball and keeps it. That would mean you get the brake. And you will be playing the ghost 10 to 7. Instead of 11 to 8. What side would you take. Playing someone that you both play even.

Would you take the brake. Or pick a ball. I am just curies. What you would take? Everybody can give there opinion what choice they would want. They brake? OR picking a ball? This would be a good gambling game. And very interesting. Like Billy said. You could even play a tournament. playing this way. And the player that wins the lag or the flip of the coin. Picks what side of the proposition. He wants to pick. Buts a little something new and different in the tournament.

Hmm. I think I would take the ball and the first shot.

I think I am decent at getting out of the break and with the added choice of removing A)a ball that may be stopping me or B)(if I see a good escape) a ball that looks good for my opponent--- I think I would choose this option.

LSJohn · Jan 15, 2015

Mkbtank said:
Hmm. I think I would take the ball and the first shot.

I think I am decent at getting out of the break and with the added choice of removing A)a ball that may be stopping me or B)(if I see a good escape) a ball that looks good for my opponent--- I think I would choose this option.

I must be confused because I don't think it's even close. The breaker is only gaining half of the breaks. Looks to me that pick and first shot is WAY stronger than half the breaks.

I love Bill's game but if they get it on 11-8 I'll be looking for someone who wants to bet on him.

androd · Jan 15, 2015

LSJohn said:
I must be confused because I don't think it's even close. The breaker is only gaining half of the breaks. Looks to me that pick and first shot is WAY stronger than half the breaks.

I love Bill's game but if they get it on 11-8 I'll be looking for someone who wants to bet on him.

Well the pick can make the 1st shot easier and or stronger. He has the 1st shot anyway.
Having the other half of the breaks is more than it sounds.
Rod.
P.S. I agree BTW going to 7 is where it's at. Still I think it's close.

1 pick and the pop

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