who is your favorite player

jrhendy

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onepocket926 said:
...my Favorite player was and is....Ronnie...(...the player you love to hate...lol...).....least Favorite was...Joe Veasy...and most memorable charactor...was....Heart Attack Jack...(...more than once faked a heart attack to shark the other player...lol..)

Three good picks and hard to argue with. I have memories and stories of all three. I will see Ronnie in the next week or so and when I get some time and a couple of adult beverages in me to refresh my memory, tell a couple stories about Heart Attack Jack, who I knew well. You must have been from Southern CA, how did you end up in Anderson?
 

onepocket926

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......stuck in Anderson....

......stuck in Anderson....

.....yes....I played at the Billiard Palace...(Vern Petersons place).....in the 60's.........in Anderson with my Brothers carin' for my aged Mother....was Playin' at Buffalo Billiards...(Cotati)....for a few years.....left them to deal with my Son...lol....(hits 'em pretty straight).....they closed the only pool hall in Reading...last year....now I get to play.....every couple of months when I visit my Son.....just wish he'd learn some 1hole...I gave him my ....shots, moves and stradagies book....hope he's he hasn't left it in the outhouse to be used as toilet paper.....lol.....
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Dick Mc Morran said:
Arty,
Once again, you have strayed way off topic. Now you want to debate which gang was meanest, or had the best hit men. Purple gang, Sammy G, Al Capone, The N.Y. bosses or Al Sherman, Hubert Cokes and Titanic. The latter two did not aspire to associate themselves with gangs, but they sure weren't afraid of them, and dealt with them in their own way !
Do you really think you are making a statement of any kind ?
I was trying to make a point with Jay, (and he probably knows better than me) about how really smart and respected, Ti and Coke's were, in their day.
They spent a good part of their lives dealing with dangerous phsyco's, at times, but mostly with suckers (and a lot of very smart businessmen) They may have looked at the Rack, weighed the risk,reward, and passed on it. You or I will never know.
I thought we were talking about pool player's, card cheat's, sucker's and con men. Somehow we're are off on killer's and mob connections.
It's obvious we lived in two different world's Arty, also there appears to be no room for humor in your world, its ALL about the money, isn't it. I'm going to leave you with your lifetime of rememberences.
I'll just keep mine, thank you.

Nice talking with you,

Dick

P.S By the way Arty, you missed the whole point about the movie "the Hustler"...It wasn't about pool.... it just had pool in it !
I gues we were watching two different moves. I thhought the move started about hustlers and was about huslter like when the hustled the horse plsyer and when the hustled in the pool room were he got his thumbs broken. And When paul newmen and his backer said the hustled all over on the roda. And the even gave the move the name the hustler. And I guess in your mind FAts was not a hustler. But a straight pool player. And in my eyes you dont degrade the best straight pool player in life. And thats what the key role was over straight pool. And FAts was not a straight pool hustler and that is what the made him. JUst like Ronnie Allen he was not a straight pool player he was a hustler and gambler and he was around Lenny a lot and played golf for money Ronnie liked betting and action not playing 100 points for 20 dollares straight pool and thats what Fats was about. What I brought out was that TV does not show the real caracter and what he realy was. THe use their name and make up a different caracter then what he was. NOt the real caracter. And All I said That the gangsters are the real tough guys. And nobody is gping to win against them. And I asked you were you with Ty when he made one off his scores. Or is it all hersay. And I didnt build Hubert Cookes up as a killer someone else did. I herd what a gentlemen Hubert Cooks was I never said that he wasant a gentlmen. All I said what would have happened if he would have went to Detroite . And he wouldnt have had no problem. THe didnt bother anyone in Detroite and the made sure their were no problems. And I never said that Ty was not a gentlemen eitheir. And I hope you arent ofended if I ask if his stories are authentic and real. I am not a nocker but I am into knowing the truth or is it a made up story. Thats what I am interested in. And who would go for those kind of games. When I her stories that dont sound realistic I like to cheeck them out. And it realy doesant even mater if its the truth or not. But I would like to no for myself. ANA I no EVERY TIME SOME ONE ASKS ME A QUISTION I ANSWER IT AND I TRY TO ANSWER IT TRUTH FULLY. BUT WHEN I ASK A QUISTION I DONT GET MY QUISTIONED ANSWERED WHY IS THAT. And one thing I learned in life if you ask ten people the same quistion everyone will have a different aswer. And thats howe the world is. I never brought up the purple gang. And I brought up Al CApone as a example what a real gangster and tough guy is since. WE were talking about the greatest hustlers and con men and tough guys. I just want things to be but in the wright perspective. And dont make up someone something their not. A lot of peopke dont like to het the truth the would rather like to he made up stories. JUst like when I played I was not exciting and enteresting to watch. I was dull and boring because the only thing that counts when you play is winning. And Ronnie Bugs and corn bread red and Fats the wer colorfull players to watch. BUt when I played my real game I went into a COMA and all I seen was my cue stick and the table and the balls. And when I would start going into my concentration. I never talked or made I contact with no one. It was between me and my turn at the table. And it did not matter who I played. Because I gave 100% concentraytion on the game. And thats why I played for money. Because in tournaments the want you to just shoot and spead up the game and not even think. I remember when I played in a millers light tournament in milwakie and Corn Bread REd was their and the reff told me to go ahead and shoot and quite staling. And Corn Bread REd said he isnt stalling he is the only one that knowes how to play. And the refferie never said another word. And Just so you dont take the other side against me Freddy when I tell you ahead of time what happened. And then you make up the story the way you want it to be for whatever reason. I remember very well what happened because thats how I made my living. And I will tell this true story about FReddy because he said I never say anything about him. But that doesnt mean that I dont no or forgot. My mind is stillnvery sharp or else I wouldnt even be saying anything. And I have said a lot of stuff to help pool players and their game and life . And I hop dick can do the same. This is the only story I am going to tell about FReddy for now and he was the champion and the hero. I dont even no if he will remember this or forgot about it. But her it is Freddy FOR YOU. It was Johnny Abrusos team from the Estos lounge. And the players were Freddy Artie Gorge Palwalskie and Johnny Abruso. First prize was 5 thousand dollares. It was a12 game match going into the last game and the score was 32 to 30 in favor of the other team. And Freddy ran out the rack with the other team leaving two balls on the table. And that was the greatest run out I ever seen And freddy made four imposable shots and then cut the eight ball back words to win the match. And I thought we had no chance to win the game but Freddy one the game and that was the greatest game I ever seen Freddy shoot. He made four imposable shots and a miricale eight ball cut unblivebale is the only way I can describe it. And I thought I would bring back the dead. BUt Freddy I have to give you a ten for that game and I never thought you could do it. But you did. And to get out from their the odds would mave been off the boadr. All I can say is good shoothing Freddy. And that was a good team we had. That was the greatest run out I ever seen playing eight ball good job FReddy.
 

lfigueroa

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
I gues we were watching two different moves. I thhought the move started about hustlers and was about huslter like when the hustled the horse plsyer and when the hustled in the pool room were he got his thumbs broken.

Wikipedia is your friend:

"'The Hustler' is fundamentally a story of what it means to be a human being, couched within the context of winning and losing.[14][8] Describing the film, Robert Rossen said: "My protagonist, Fast Eddie, wants to become a great pool player, but the film is really about the obstacles he encounters in attempting to fulfill himself as a human being. He attains self-awareness only after a terrible personal tragedy which he has caused - and then he wins his pool game."[14] Roger Ebert concurs with this assessment, citing The Hustler as "one of the few American movies in which the hero wins by surrendering, by accepting reality instead of his dreams."[8]

Film and theatre historian Ethan Mordden has identified The Hustler as one of a handful of films from the early 1960s that re-defined the relationship of films to their audiences. This relationship, he writes, is "one of challenge rather than flattery, of doubt rather than certainty."[15] No film of the 1950s, Mordden asserts, "took such a brutal, clear look at the ego-affirmation of the one-on-one contest, at the inhumanity of the winner or the castrated vulnerability of the loser."[16] Although some have suggested the resemblance of this film to classic film noir, Mordden rejects the comparison based on Rossen's ultra-realistic style, also noting that the film lacks noir's "Treacherous Woman or its relish in discovering crime among the bourgeoisie, hungry bank clerks and lusty wives."[16] Mordden does note that while Fast Eddie "has a slight fifties ring",[17] the character "makes a decisive break with the extraordinarily feeling tough guys of the 'rebel' era ... ut he does end up seeking out his emotions"[17] and telling Bert that Bert is a loser because he's dead inside.[17]"

Lou Figueroa
 

SJDinPHX

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What he said!

What he said!

lfigueroa said:
Wikipedia is your friend:

"'The Hustler' is fundamentally a story of what it means to be a human being, couched within the context of winning and losing.[14][8] Describing the film, Robert Rossen said: "My protagonist, Fast Eddie, wants to become a great pool player, but the film is really about the obstacles he encounters in attempting to fulfill himself as a human being. He attains self-awareness only after a terrible personal tragedy which he has caused - and then he wins his pool game."[14] Roger Ebert concurs with this assessment, citing The Hustler as "one of the few American movies in which the hero wins by surrendering, by accepting reality instead of his dreams."[8]

Film and theatre historian Ethan Mordden has identified The Hustler as one of a handful of films from the early 1960s that re-defined the relationship of films to their audiences. This relationship, he writes, is "one of challenge rather than flattery, of doubt rather than certainty."[15] No film of the 1950s, Mordden asserts, "took such a brutal, clear look at the ego-affirmation of the one-on-one contest, at the inhumanity of the winner or the castrated vulnerability of the loser."[16] Although some have suggested the resemblance of this film to classic film noir, Mordden rejects the comparison based on Rossen's ultra-realistic style, also noting that the film lacks noir's "Treacherous Woman or its relish in discovering crime among the bourgeoisie, hungry bank clerks and lusty wives."[16] Mordden does note that while Fast Eddie "has a slight fifties ring",[17] the character "makes a decisive break with the extraordinarily feeling tough guys of the 'rebel' era ... ut he does end up seeking out his emotions"[17] and telling Bert that Bert is a loser because he's dead inside.[17]"

Lou Figueroa


Lou, Thanks for digging up that informative little gem. I always felt a deeper, darker theme to that movie than just hustling pool. It would not have had the mass appeal it enjoyed if that were the case. TCOM was much more about pool and both movies sure gave the game a much needed boost.
 

Skin

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lfigueroa said:
Wikipedia is your friend:

"'The Hustler' is fundamentally a story of what it means to be a human being, couched within the context of winning and losing.[14][8] Describing the film, Robert Rossen said: "My protagonist, Fast Eddie, wants to become a great pool player, but the film is really about the obstacles he encounters in attempting to fulfill himself as a human being. He attains self-awareness only after a terrible personal tragedy which he has caused - and then he wins his pool game."[14] Roger Ebert concurs with this assessment, citing The Hustler as "one of the few American movies in which the hero wins by surrendering, by accepting reality instead of his dreams."[8]

Film and theatre historian Ethan Mordden has identified The Hustler as one of a handful of films from the early 1960s that re-defined the relationship of films to their audiences. This relationship, he writes, is "one of challenge rather than flattery, of doubt rather than certainty."[15] No film of the 1950s, Mordden asserts, "took such a brutal, clear look at the ego-affirmation of the one-on-one contest, at the inhumanity of the winner or the castrated vulnerability of the loser."[16] Although some have suggested the resemblance of this film to classic film noir, Mordden rejects the comparison based on Rossen's ultra-realistic style, also noting that the film lacks noir's "Treacherous Woman or its relish in discovering crime among the bourgeoisie, hungry bank clerks and lusty wives."[16] Mordden does note that while Fast Eddie "has a slight fifties ring",[17] the character "makes a decisive break with the extraordinarily feeling tough guys of the 'rebel' era ... ut he does end up seeking out his emotions"[17] and telling Bert that Bert is a loser because he's dead inside.[17]"

Lou Figueroa


I always thought it was about unbridled greed and ambition and how the antidote to those is compassion and love. Fast Eddie understands this at the end after he realizes he threw Sarah under the bus for Bert and a game with Finley to get a stake so he could get at Fats again.

Of course, no character in the film was even close to being well-adjusted. The closest probably was that bartender, Mack ("Check"!). :D

Skin
 

lfigueroa

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Dick Mc Morran said:
Lou, Thanks for digging up that informative little gem. I always felt a deeper, darker theme to that movie than just hustling pool. It would not have had the mass appeal it enjoyed if that were the case. TCOM was much more about pool and both movies sure gave the game a much needed boost.

My pleasure, Dick.

Like most of us, over the years I'd seen the movie many times. But it wasn't until just a few years ago that I happen to catch it, from the very beginning, in the original wide-screen format.

It was a revelation.

The movie takes on a much darker and compelling tone, with the proportions of a Greek tragedy -- replete with chorus in some of the pool room scenes. If you haven't seen it that way, I highly recommend it.

Lou Figueroa
 

gulfportdoc

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lfigueroa said:
...Although some have suggested the resemblance of this film to classic film noir, Mordden rejects the comparison based on Rossen's ultra-realistic style, also noting that the film lacks noir's "Treacherous Woman or its relish in discovering crime among the bourgeoisie, hungry bank clerks and lusty wives."[16] Mordden does note that while Fast Eddie "has a slight fifties ring",[17] the character "makes a decisive break with the extraordinarily feeling tough guys of the 'rebel' era ... ut he does end up seeking out his emotions"[17] and telling Bert that Bert is a loser because he's dead inside.[17]"

The Hustler was a thoroughly modern movie. When I first saw the film in 1961, I was completely drawn in by it's realism and settings. The backdrop in NYC instilled a gritty and fascinating hue to the story. The bus station, the bars, the poolrooms-- they all leapt off the screen at me. I was compelled to travel to Ames Poolroom later that year as if I were drawn to a tabernacle.

The late 1950's had been a period of major transition in films-- from fluff to real life. Some of the great films of the era, such as Anatomy of a Murder, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, 12 Angry Men, On the Waterfront, all the great Tennessee Williams films, etc., brought filmgoers into brand new areas. These films presented a perfect matrix for The Hustler to emerge, and I think it was a masterstroke.

I believe the film won an award for cinemetography. Freeze frames were new then, and they were used to great effect in the credits and during the movie's end. The music score by Kenyon Hopkins was outstanding, with his use of modern jazz. I can still hear the final major 9th chord played out as if it were yesterday...

Doc
 

stevelomako

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fred bentivegna said:
I knew him. Ti would have kept Al Sherman eating out of a garbage can. Sherman was just a "rough" hustler. Most of it worked because he was hooked up with Detroit's Purple Gang. Sherman stuck me up for what I had won in Detroit, at the Rack, after I beat the guy he was staking, James Youngblood Brown. He was an old man at the time and I coulda snatched the pistol from his hand but I knew he had the Purple Gang killer Candy, backing him up in the wings. Earlier I had beat him out of $4.5k playing him 2 block fours. Richie Ambrose beat him out of 90k with the same game. He quit me because he didnt like the squeezing. Richie on the other hand just kept running balls. I would just "leak" four into the pocket. Cardone eventually straightened the beef out, but I did not get the money I won back.

the Beard

Wow, I don't know about Al Sherman being a "rough" hustler but everybody in Detroit knows he was one "hell of a hustler".

Jew Paul thinks Ti was better, Cornbread always liked Al....everyone I've asked the last few days is about 50/50 for different reasons but they all agree both of them were stronger than acid, so either way its god damn close.

Al wasn't "connected" with the Purple Gang other than close friends and associates being "connected".


Candy was the one that prevented Titanic Thompson from being killed in Chicago.

Richie Ambrose beat Al Sherman out of more than that but we do know Richies' end was about 30,000 and he didn't pay the 5% time and got barred. Al Sherman came looking to play him again the next day and was told what happened and all he said was "Well, I don't want to play anybody that cheap anyway".
 

stevelomako

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I guess the best way to put it might be:

If you wanted to make big money hustling you'd go with Titanic Thompson.

If you wanted to make BIG money hustling you'd go with Al Sherman.


Did you know Al had an after hours place in Hollywood?


If I could have went with either knowing what I know, I'd pick Al Sherman because the money was bigger for more people. He made alot of people money.
 

fred bentivegna

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Candy and Ti

Candy and Ti

stevelomako said:
Al wasn't "connected" with the Purple Gang other than close friends and associates being "connected".

No, he wasnt connected like that, but he could have pointed his finger at somebody and gotten them killed. Like me, for instance. the Beard

Candy was the one that prevented Titanic Thompson from being killed in Chicago.

That story I don't know, Steve. Please relate it for the troops. the Beard

Richie Ambrose beat Al Sherman out of more than that but we do know Richies' end was about 30,000 and he didn't pay the 5% time and got barred. Al Sherman came looking to play him again the next day and was told what happened and all he said was "Well, I don't want to play anybody that cheap anyway".

That story is dead true, as I used to go to Richies pool room periodically at that time.

the Beard
 
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stevelomako

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fred bentivegna said:
That story is dead true, as I used to go to Richies pool room periodically at that time.

the Beard

You're right about pointing a finger and something could be done, most likely thru Mikey Selleck or Mike Thomas.


Candy went into a bar (mob joint) in Chicago and Ti came up to him (Candy didn't know him at the time) and said "You're from Detroit and I know people you know, I need you to help me out, I have a problem here. Call people you know to vouch for me, I need your help".

Candy looked around and saw a couple a guys by the back door and a couple of guys by the front door, looked at Ti and asked "Is that your problem?" When Ti replied "yes" Candy told him "You have a SERIOUS problem".

Well Candy made a couple of calls then smoothed it with the Chicago guys and Ti was able to keep breathing.

Ti made a ton of money for Candy after that.



Richie bought the pool room with the money he won from Al Sherman. Things got smoothed over after a while and they let Richie back in The Rack. That stinkin 1500 Richie wouldn't pay cost him who knows how much.

I'll tell ya about Kilroys' score with Al but I have to confirm the timeline first cause I'm pretty sure it ties in with Richie game with Al but I want to make sure.
 

SJDinPHX

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stevelomako said:
You're right about pointing a finger and something could be done, most likely thru Mikey Selleck or Mike Thomas.


Candy went into a bar (mob joint) in Chicago and Ti came up to him (Candy didn't know him at the time) and said "You're from Detroit and I know people you know, I need you to help me out, I have a problem here. Call people you know to vouch for me, I need your help".

Candy looked around and saw a couple a guys by the back door and a couple of guys by the front door, looked at Ti and asked "Is that your problem?" When Ti replied "yes" Candy told him "You have a SERIOUS problem".

Well Candy made a couple of calls then smoothed it with the Chicago guys and Ti was able to keep breathing.

Ti made a ton of money for Candy after that.



Richie bought the pool room with the money he won from Al Sherman. Things got smoothed over after a while and they let Richie back in The Rack. That stinkin 1500 Richie wouldn't pay cost him who knows how much.

I'll tell ya about Kilroys' score with Al but I have to confirm the timeline first cause I'm pretty sure it ties in with Richie game with Al but I want to make sure.

Steve,

Really enjoying your post's. You really know your Detroit "stuff " Not surprising, considering who you married. I see you've been a member here since day one. Hope to see you posting more. I knew Whitey and Red from the "Rathole" days. I missed out on the peak days of the Rack. Good to have some old blanks filled in, by someone who tells it like it was.

Dick
 

stevelomako

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Dick Mc Morran said:
Steve,

Really enjoying your post's. You really know your Detroit "stuff " Not surprising, considering who you married. I see you've been a member here since day one. Hope to see you posting more. I knew Whitey and Red from the "Rathole" days. I missed out on the peak days of the Rack. Good to have some old blanks filled in, by someone who tells it like it was.

Dick

Hi Dick,

I've known about you for a long time and I've been waiting to reply to you. You are definately one of the "Unknown Legends" that the general pool public doesn't know about...but should.

Bill Gillen says hello! He comes in my poolroom everyday and we've been friends since I was a kid. He admires about no one but always has nothing but good things to say about you from his few years in Phoenix. Theres really no more 6x12's around there in Phoenix now? It'd be a shame if Golf died in this country.

I always like talking about "stuff" that happened everywhere. I would and still can sit for hours and hours and hours listening to everybody and anybody. I loved hearing the different stories from different eras involving pool and gambling from the "horse's mouth".

Nice to finally talk to you,
Steve
 

stevelomako

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OK. Got the info about Kilroys score with Al Sherman.

What happened was, after Ambrose played Al and got barred, Kilroy started working on Al to play. Al told him you aint got nothing to play with. Well Kilroy had a piece of shit car that probably wasn't worth $50 out in the parking lot with a flat tire that Gil was bugging him to move out of the lot or get rid of, so Kilroy tells Al he'll play him for his car.

Al asks if he has the title for it and Kilroy holds up an envelope with nothing in it, starts waving it and says "I got it right here". So Al says "I'll play you for it just so I can pour gas on it and set it on fire".

They make a cheap game where Kilroy is playing one handed and he steadily starts beating Al. Well the side starts betting on Kilroy, all the bets start going up and up and when it's all said and done, Kilroy wins about $16,000 in the middle and Al Sherman loses well over a $100,000 on the side!


A side-note to the story:

After they played, Al went to a room he had cause he didn't want to go home cause his wife would bitch about him being out so long. He calls the pool room and tells Kilroy to come by, Killer goes over there and Al asks him to go get him a couple of sandwiches and things from the deli. Killer says Al lifts the mattress up and theres bricks of money underneath! He gives Roy $300 to get the food, Roy goes and spends about $15 and brings it back and Al Sherman tells him to keep the change! LOL

Is that classy or what? After losing that much.
 

SJDinPHX

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Voodoo Daddy said:
:D Johnny Ervolino all day, everyday

If you combine both "player" and "character" Johnny E. would sure get a lot of votes. I would say its a pick between him and RA. RA just had more exposure.

Dick

PS In the gentleman/class department, J.E.'s the favorite ( and I did not know a lot of east coaster's real well.)

Dick
 
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SJDinPHX

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stevelomako said:
OK. Got the info about Kilroys score with Al Sherman.

What happened was, after Ambrose played Al and got barred, Kilroy started working on Al to play. Al told him you aint got nothing to play with. Well Kilroy had a piece of shit car that probably wasn't worth $50 out in the parking lot with a flat tire that Gil was bugging him to move out of the lot or get rid of, so Kilroy tells Al he'll play him for his car.

Al asks if he has the title for it and Kilroy holds up an envelope with nothing in it, starts waving it and says "I got it right here". So Al says "I'll play you for it just so I can pour gas on it and set it on fire".

They make a cheap game where Kilroy is playing one handed and he steadily starts beating Al. Well the side starts betting on Kilroy, all the bets start going up and up and when it's all said and done, Kilroy wins about $16,000 in the middle and Al Sherman loses well over a $100,000 on the side!


A side-note to the story:

After they played, Al went to a room he had cause he didn't want to go home cause his wife would bitch about him being out so long. He calls the pool room and tells Kilroy to come by, Killer goes over there and Al asks him to go get him a couple of sandwiches and things from the deli. Killer says Al lifts the mattress up and theres bricks of money underneath! He gives Roy $300 to get the food, Roy goes and spends about $15 and brings it back and Al Sherman tells him to keep the change! LOL

Is that classy or what? After losing that much.

Steve, after hearing that story from you, I wish I had met Al Sherman. He must be a class act. There is so much BS floating around, I was reluctant to believe all I had heard. Thanks for making him a real life person. I still like Ti and will always look on him as the most unforgetable character I've ever met.
Had I met Al, it might be a toss up.

Titanic Dick (Geez, I like the sound of that)
 

fred bentivegna

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The pleasure of his company

The pleasure of his company

Dick Mc Morran said:
Steve, after hearing that story from you, I wish I had met Al Sherman. He must be a class act. There is so much BS floating around, I was reluctant to believe all I had heard. Thanks for making him a real life person. I still like Ti and will always look on him as the most unforgetable character I've ever met.
Had I met Al, it might be a toss up.

Titanic Dick (Geez, I like the sound of that)


Yeah, maybe you could have had the pleasure of having the 9mm stuck in your stomach, off of his "class act" ass, too. He could have given you a greater appreciation of being alive.

the Beard

There have only been 3 guys commenting on Al Sherman. Me, Artie and Steve Lomako. Steve couldnt have been more than a teenager then. Which one of us, according to you, has been "floating the BS" about this wonderful man?
 
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SJDinPHX

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Not again !!!

Not again !!!

Freddy,

Did not mean to step on anyone's toe's. I see you had personal confrontation with the man. No one knows but you and him, what prompted that.
We are all guilty of floating a little BS on here. Do we really need to open old wounds, again ? Is everything in Chcago, like NY, all about taking sides. I've been thrown down on a few times myself. I know its no picnic.
I Just made a harmless reply to another man's post... and we're off AGAIN ??

Dick
 
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