1/4" follow/draw shot videos!

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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[URL="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDU2J0dlhaN1dRV3c/view?usp=drivesdk"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk[/URL][/URL][/URL]

In approx. '69 Raymond Ceuleman, the #1 billiard player in the world, came to Paramount Billiards, Long Beach, Ca., to perform an exhibition match, and afterwards he performed these close draw and follow shots that traveled approx. 15' -18' to make the billiards.
The draw shot drew straight back and double out of the upper corner and then went kiddy corner to the far corner for the billiard. The follow shot went straight down into the foot cushion and left spun to the side rail and then kiddy corner into the lower corner for the billiard. The follow shot is fantastic for the cue ball sets there and spins like a top before it takes off.
I was able to duplicate his shots at that time. Thus I learned the foul criteria for these shots from him.


CLOSE PROXIMITY BALL/FOUL CRITERIA:
* When an intended or an otherwise to be contacted object ball is in close proximity of the cue ball then one must be aware that a push shot or a double hit foul may occur*.
1. When stroking the cue ball with draw directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball can not go forward past the contact point, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
2. When stroking the cue ball with follow directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball must pause at the contact point before proceeding to follow, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
3. Regarding foul criteria line 1 and 2, if these shots are attempted with an elevated cue, such as a masse draw or a force follow then the same foul criteria applies.
4. The above criteria are based upon the cue ball remaining upon the bed of the table, and not elevated into the object ball.
5. In stroking the shot on an angle with either draw or follow the cue ball will follow the tangent line before the draw or follow takes over. But, if the cue ball goes initially forward of the tangent line then it is a foul. (foul criteria).

Enjoy for the holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Whiteyhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Patrick Johnson

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[URL="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDU2J0dlhaN1dRV3c/view?usp=drivesdk"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk[/URL][/URL][/URL]

In approx. '69 Raymond Ceuleman, the #1 billiard player in the world, came to Paramount Billiards, Long Beach, Ca., to perform an exhibition match, and afterwards he performed these close draw and follow shots that traveled approx. 15' -18' to make the billiards.
The draw shot drew straight back and double out of the upper corner and then went kiddy corner to the far corner for the billiard. The follow shot went straight down into the foot cushion and left spun to the side rail and then kiddy corner into the lower corner for the billiard. The follow shot is fantastic for the cue ball sets there and spins like a top before it takes off.
I was able to duplicate his shots at that time. Thus I learned the foul criteria for these shots from him.


CLOSE PROXIMITY BALL/FOUL CRITERIA:
* When an intended or an otherwise to be contacted object ball is in close proximity of the cue ball then one must be aware that a push shot or a double hit foul may occur*.
1. When stroking the cue ball with draw directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball can not go forward past the contact point, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
2. When stroking the cue ball with follow directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball must pause at the contact point before proceeding to follow, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
3. Regarding foul criteria line 1 and 2, if these shots are attempted with an elevated cue, such as a masse draw or a force follow then the same foul criteria applies.
4. The above criteria are based upon the cue ball remaining upon the bed of the table, and not elevated into the object ball.
5. In stroking the shot on an angle with either draw or follow the cue ball will follow the tangent line before the draw or follow takes over. But, if the cue ball goes initially forward of the tangent line then it is a foul. (foul criteria).

Enjoy for the holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Whiteyhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk
You may already know that the cueing technique used to avoid fouling these shots is called "fouette" (pronounced fwet-tay, I think) - where you strike far enough from center that the tip deflects around the cue ball, almost a miscue.

pj
chgo
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Patrick,
Yes, your cue has to get out of the way. As with the draw you can see it going underneath and off to the right side, for it is stroked with low right. If you were to stroke it center draw it would foul.

I, in part made this video for Dr. Dave and others for their enjoyment, as I promised him I would do a few years ago, for he does not have an example of this except for Bob Jewett video of slamming his hand into the rail to stop the stroke.

So I wanted to demonstrate that yes the cue ball can be drawn straight back without slamming your hand into the table. Dr. Dave does have someone doing this shot and having the cue ball angle off on a 45 degree angle to the end cushion.

But the draw shot can be accomplished with a 4 o'clock stroke, with no danger of coming close to a miscue. It is the speed of stroke and proper hit on the cue ball that brings the cue ball straight back vs. the cue ball coming off and back on an angle, which is caused by not as clean of hit by having the cue ball slightly roll off the tip and object ball before coming back.

The follow shot, I am using straight high center ball with no english. in this case the cue goes over the top of the cue ball. I did this video to show the cue ball pause at the contact point, and sitting there and spinning before taking off.

I also wanted to debunk a slow motion video that I heard about in the 80's that declared and proved that these shots were impossible to do with out fouling. Which is just an example of someone poorly executing the shots, and at the time having the world believe it, what a travesty. I just want the truth to be known and to save these magnificent shots from malignment!

It is hard to imagine that it has been 50 yrs. since Raymond Ceuleman did these shots and still the general pool players are unaware, and also billiard rule making bodies are unaware of the true foul criteria of these most magnificent shots that occur everyday in game play! This is the most common and most misunderstood shot in all of billiards.

If anyone has any questions about these shots or their foul criteria, you are very welcome to ask me. But the key is a pure stroke that is very fast! Merry Christmas! Whitey

Patrick I sent you a PM ! thanks!
 
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Patrick Johnson

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You may already know that the cueing technique used to avoid fouling these shots is called "fouette" (pronounced fwet-tay, I think) - where you strike far enough from center that the tip deflects around the cue ball, almost a miscue.

pj
chgo
You can find slomo video of fouetté strokes and some instruction about how to hit them on Dr. Dave’s website: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa0SpV4OHvU

pj
chgo
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Klamath Falls, Or.
Patrick check your PM, and thanks for the added videos! I was in hope someone would post them. Dr. Dave's efforts have sure extended the knowledge of billiard disciplines. The videos of the cue elevated adds to the visualization of close proximity foul criteria when the cue is elevated. These videos plus mine complete the full criteria of the shots disciplines, for Dr. Dave does not quite have a representation of my shots posted.

The one thing that Dr. Dave has corrected over the recent years, if my memory serves me right, is to eliminate the vertical line of the original position of the cb, and has correctly moved it to the contact point of the object ball. I see there is still a couple of videos that have the original position line of the cb which serves no purpose in this scenario, for it is all about the contact point.

I personally did not know of Dr. Dave's videos until well after I wrote the foul criteria for close proximity shots in '08. But I am very pleased that his videos verify my foul criteria rule writings.

I hope to add a couple more eye opener videos of close draw shots that I really love doing, but have not done up the videos as of yet! Thanks, Whitey
 
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Billy Jackets

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[URL="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDU2J0dlhaN1dRV3c/view?usp=drivesdk"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk[/URL][/URL][/URL]

In approx. '69 Raymond Ceuleman, the #1 billiard player in the world, came to Paramount Billiards, Long Beach, Ca., to perform an exhibition match, and afterwards he performed these close draw and follow shots that traveled approx. 15' -18' to make the billiards.
The draw shot drew straight back and double out of the upper corner and then went kiddy corner to the far corner for the billiard. The follow shot went straight down into the foot cushion and left spun to the side rail and then kiddy corner into the lower corner for the billiard. The follow shot is fantastic for the cue ball sets there and spins like a top before it takes off.
I was able to duplicate his shots at that time. Thus I learned the foul criteria for these shots from him.


CLOSE PROXIMITY BALL/FOUL CRITERIA:
* When an intended or an otherwise to be contacted object ball is in close proximity of the cue ball then one must be aware that a push shot or a double hit foul may occur*.
1. When stroking the cue ball with draw directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball can not go forward past the contact point, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
2. When stroking the cue ball with follow directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball must pause at the contact point before proceeding to follow, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
3. Regarding foul criteria line 1 and 2, if these shots are attempted with an elevated cue, such as a masse draw or a force follow then the same foul criteria applies.
4. The above criteria are based upon the cue ball remaining upon the bed of the table, and not elevated into the object ball.
5. In stroking the shot on an angle with either draw or follow the cue ball will follow the tangent line before the draw or follow takes over. But, if the cue ball goes initially forward of the tangent line then it is a foul. (foul criteria).

Enjoy for the holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Whiteyhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk

The follow shot looks like the cue hits the top of the the ball after contact , probably an optical illusion but I would think most people would call it a foul in a game.
 

beatle

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if you dont explain what you are going to do and he accepts then an argument is in the making. all that looks great on a video but what are you going to do when he calls foul.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Billy Jackets, Yes it is an illusion for if the cb hits or rests upon the cb then the cb would not go any where.

Billy Jackets and Beatle, you are right, and pose a very good observation, a foul is most likely going to be called, especially on the follow shot! If a referee came over after the fact on a called foul, it would be very hard to explain that the cue ball traveled 15 feet shooting directly at an object within a 1/4". And even if the referee viewed the shot they most likely would call a foul for they are not trained in such disciplines.

I have worked with Bret Baker the head of referees for CSI/BCAPL and TD of DCC on these shots and he has video tape me doing them. So I am doing my part in trying to get the knowledge out. But it is very hard for players to know the true foul criteria when the major rule making bodies do not have any information at all on these shots. The last information I have seen on this is in old BCA rule books that allow the cue ball to go through the object ball a half ball when drawing the cue ball on a close proximity shot, but I believe this rule is now gone. The closest thing I believe to a current day rule is APA whereas within a chalk width of ob you have to stroke the cb on a 45 degree angle, wow! Within a tooth pick between the cb and the ob and if you stroke on a 45 degree angle with center ball there will not be a foul! Try it!

It is funny, many players think if they jack up their cue it then is not going to be a foul! This is why I am glad Patrick supplied the added videos.

In my little town of 40 thousand our local league president tried to find some kind of information from WPA and BCAPL/CSI on these shots and could not. He confided in me and now our league plays by the correct foul criteria. It is hard to imagine that this little, in the middle of no where town, has of their players to play the game by a higher standard than any other pool player in the world. We have been playing by these standards for 5 years, the knowledge is there and very easy to judge, so we do not have any problems.

It is going to take a major rule making body/ or some one in the positon to do so, to step up and adopt these foul criteria for the knowledge to get out there. But who is going to take the lead? I've tried since '08 to get this accomplished. Thank goodness for OnePocket.org forum for there is a lot of knowledge reaching quite a few players through this site.

It is hard to imagine in this era of our world of information, and players thirst for information, and their taking pride in knowing the disciplines of billiards, that this most common of shots that presents itself every minute of everyday throughout the world just eludes us, it is 2018 by the way, not 1969 when I first learned this foul criteria from Raymond Ceuleman. Whitey
Saving shots!
 
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unoperro

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We are playing league in a shitty bar on a shitty table against a shitty bunch. My captains opponent leaves his cue ball frozen to the rail a 1/8" from his runout ball. My captain says wait someone needs to watch the hit/dbl. hit. Guy replies I am jacking up. I am grinning from ear to ear as my captain is the most competitive guy I have ever met,and he might lose a game to this clown on a obvious foul which will be- but I was jacked up-contested.

I and the other captain observe. The guy miscues and shoots the prettiest masse you have ever seen. I am laughing hysterically and my captain looks like he has seen a ghost. The cliwn misses a straight in 8ball and my captain runs out.

On the ride home I had to listen to "You know that was a foul? All miscues are fouls. He miscued. He didnt intend to masse that shot. Give me a break,oh my god I wanted to puke"

I set the shot up and executed it when we got home. It was funny to see the captain get excited all over again.
 

beatle

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if you played in many of the pool rooms ive been in you dont get paid if you hit a shot when the cueball is close to the object ball full on and have any chance there may have been a so called "click". so you had to get advance approval or jack up to 45 deg. and shoot down and then all shots were good even a double hit.
this may not have been purest pool but it was equal for all and works.
if you dont like it dont shoot that shot. simple as that.

in a tournament you have a ref to come over and make a decision you may not like either.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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whitey in case you dont go to the members only forum watch some of the shots bill smith (mr3cushion) shoots with the balls close together
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?p=227444#post227444

Thanks lll, your right I had not notice this thread on Members Forum! I just love 3 cushion billiard shots. I had a golden opportunity to learn 3 cushion from a member of the Brunswick team that toured with Hoppe, but being a dumb kid of 18 I just wanted to pocket balls. He actually played against Ceuleman in this doubles exhibition match. Unfortunately I do not remember his name, and have not been able to locate any info. on the Brunswick team of Hoppe's.

But Mr3cushion shots are an excellent example of angle close proximity shots. You'll notice on each of these shots the cb follows the tangent line before the english takes over. These angle shots adds speed to the cb for you are not shooting directly at the ob. Ref. post 1, foul criteria 5.

Pay attention to @ :14 sec, angle follow, :22 sec, angle draw for these are good examples. @1:16 angle draw, this is one of my favorite shots to do. @ 1:36 is a 3 cushion draw shot whereas the ob is froze to the rail and the cb draws back and around 3 cushions. I did this shot in '69 when in practicing 9-ball the cb was trapped and could not go forward for position, so I had to draw it around 3 rails for position on the next ball which was on the head cushion. After that I went around and showed some cueists this shot, and they stroked it on down. Now it is all over the internet, and Cory Duel uses it for his opening shot for his instructional video. This shot brings back fawn memories!

@ 2:19 is an angle 1/4" 3 cushion draw shot that is similar to Ceuleman's exhibition shot, except Ceuleman shoots directly at the ob and draws the cue ball straight back, and the shot is executed at the apex of the head string and 1 diamond off left side cushion as you are looking at it. Very nice example of the shot!

Thanks so much to Mr3cushion for sharing his video of shots. Very fun stuff and he has an excellent stroke! I am going to study his video for I need to work on those close draw shots off the rail, for they are not easy to execute! Whitey
Thanks guys for helping "saving shots"!
 

lll

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vero beach fl
whitey
here is some more on the subject from bill smith (mr3cushion)
,,,
,,,
]Larry/Whitey; the technique has 4 components, the stroke must be, 'rapid,' 'short and the CB must be struck with extreme English, (Follow,Draw, RHE or LHE).

One other little hint to executing 'close CB OB force follows and force draws is, "Don't take too many warm-up strokes!" You don't want the cue to start feeling too heavy, the longer you swing it back & forth! You'll also lose the 'feeling' for the stroke!

On a force follow shot, "If the CB follows the OB immediately after contact, this is a FOUL! On a force follow shot the CB has to 'hesitate' for a moment before the follow effect takes!"

On force draw shots it's just the opposite, "The CB must take the draw effect 'immediately' after contact with the OB! If it does not, it's a FOUL!"

I hope this is helpful.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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whitey
here is some more on the subject from bill smith (mr3cushion)
,,,
,,,
]Larry/Whitey; the technique has 4 components, the stroke must be, 'rapid,' 'short and the CB must be struck with extreme English, (Follow,Draw, RHE or LHE).

One other little hint to executing 'close CB OB force follows and force draws is, "Don't take too many warm-up strokes!" You don't want the cue to start feeling too heavy, the longer you swing it back & forth! You'll also lose the 'feeling' for the stroke!

On a force follow shot, "If the CB follows the OB immediately after contact, this is a FOUL! On a force follow shot the CB has to 'hesitate' for a moment before the follow effect takes!"

On force draw shots it's just the opposite, "The CB must take the draw effect 'immediately' after contact with the OB! If it does not, it's a FOUL!"

I hope this is helpful.[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]

lll, I do agree this stroke works on the type of shots he was executing for they were angled and not straight towards the ob. Remember if the cb is slightly angle in stroking the ob it then adds a lot of speed to the cb. Thus a shorter stroke as Mr3cushion is using works. Will it work in shooting directly at the ob, possibly yes, but to get the distance required maybe difficult.

But, I remember doing Ceuleman's draw shot when I was a kid and decided I would stand upright and watch the cue go through, it went through approx. 14 inches and was a complete blur, same with the follow shot, that is how much speed is on the stroke.

Shooting directly at the ob with follow means the cb starts from a complete stop and then goes forward and it has to go approx. 20 feet to do Ceuleman's follow shot. It takes a stroke to pull it off. Stroking these shots on a slight angle then the cb does not completely come to a stop, but does pause and follow the tangent line before it goes forward.

I can not agree with his foul criteria on a draw shot that it has to draw immediately, unless he means it goes forward of the contact point and then draws back. This I can agree with! But, I can stroke a close draw and have the cb ball just sit there and spin with the english I put on it, and not draw back at all, and it is a legal shot because it did not travel past the contact point.
As you see in my videos the stroke does not go though that far, but I was only trying to show the foul criteria and on the draw I wanted to draw it straight back. I do not have the elbow point of a 20 year old anymore so these shots are much harder to pull off to get the required distance, but I am getting there, and I get more distance on a full stroke.
Thanks lll for searching for answers, and thanks Mr3cushion for supplying answers. Whitey
 

OneRock

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South Florida
Impressive.

[URL="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDU2J0dlhaN1dRV3c/view?usp=drivesdk"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk[/URL][/URL][/URL]

In approx. '69 Raymond Ceuleman, the #1 billiard player in the world, came to Paramount Billiards, Long Beach, Ca., to perform an exhibition match, and afterwards he performed these close draw and follow shots that traveled approx. 15' -18' to make the billiards.
The draw shot drew straight back and double out of the upper corner and then went kiddy corner to the far corner for the billiard. The follow shot went straight down into the foot cushion and left spun to the side rail and then kiddy corner into the lower corner for the billiard. The follow shot is fantastic for the cue ball sets there and spins like a top before it takes off.
I was able to duplicate his shots at that time. Thus I learned the foul criteria for these shots from him.


CLOSE PROXIMITY BALL/FOUL CRITERIA:
* When an intended or an otherwise to be contacted object ball is in close proximity of the cue ball then one must be aware that a push shot or a double hit foul may occur*.
1. When stroking the cue ball with draw directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball can not go forward past the contact point, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
2. When stroking the cue ball with follow directly towards a very close proximity object ball then the cue ball must pause at the contact point before proceeding to follow, or it will be a foul. (foul criteria)
3. Regarding foul criteria line 1 and 2, if these shots are attempted with an elevated cue, such as a masse draw or a force follow then the same foul criteria applies.
4. The above criteria are based upon the cue ball remaining upon the bed of the table, and not elevated into the object ball.
5. In stroking the shot on an angle with either draw or follow the cue ball will follow the tangent line before the draw or follow takes over. But, if the cue ball goes initially forward of the tangent line then it is a foul. (foul criteria).

Enjoy for the holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Whiteyhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1M6F4TdEkkPO0WcQOWAKQrH8nfwSwiiVv/view?usp=drivesdk
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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my two favorites

my two favorites

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DJlQ3g5MOHCzzykZqR3q4zbW16gaHVHa/view?usp=drivesdkhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1xB3hqnnM9lorN3ZYIFf0yHsJCf-ihbAZ/view?usp=drivesdk
I've been working on my stroke speed so I could present these shots.
These are a couple of my favorite close proximity draw shots. The shot into the side pocket, I placed out in the middle of the table so that way it would be pretty hard to do a masse' for position. I mean if you said to someone now get shape on the 8. This shot if I were to place it close to the near side pocket it makes it look more impossible to do for it appears you would draw it into the side pocket. Note: cb is not allowed to travel past the contact point, or it will be a foul.
Notice how straight the cb drew back. I have a theory, well more than a theory but; the quicker the stroke the straighter the cb draws back.

The other shot of making the 8 ball, I oops missed the straight in on the 15. LOL. You can hear my grand daughter in the back ground, and she was getting antsy, so we left it.
On this shot the 15 is off the cushion about a 1/2" with cb placed slightly farther out for you are putting left english low and thus throwing the ball in the hole, slightly. The tangent line is slightly angled towards the left of contact point, of which the cb initially travels on. If the cb was to go past the tangent line (archs around) it would be a foul. The stroke is parallel with the cushion. If you are right handed you would do this shot from the other direction. I notice the gap seems a little more, believe it or not but that makes it harder to draw! Stay within a 1/4".

The 8 ball shot reacts like a cut draw which adds speed, whereas the side pocket shot is shot directly at the ob, so you have to generate more of your own speed. The key is to relax and stroke speeeeeed.

Mr.3cushion also put up some of his within a 1/4" follow/draw shots, on a thread. They maybe posted here, very excellent shots, well worth researching. I suggest going through this entire thread if you have not viewed it before.

Click on the box to make the video bigger. If you wondering why the table looks so big it is a 5x10. Enjoy, and happy holidays! Whitey
 
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