Short vs. natural handicaps

ccaranna · Jun 9, 2012

Which is a bigger advantage to the weaker player, short or natural handicaps?

For instance, I am the weaker player and get beat consistently in 8-7 matches with the fellow I always play. I can usually pocket 4 or 5. Would the next best fair proposal be 10-6, 8-5 or something else? Tough question I realize, but I was wondering what some of the stronger players that want a good game offer as handicaps. I am a decent breaker.

Thanks,
Chuck

jrhendy · Jun 9, 2012

ccaranna said:
Which is a bigger advantage to the weaker player, short or natural handicaps?

For instance, I am the weaker player and get beat consistently 8-7 against the fellow I always play. I can usually pocket 4 or 5. Would the next best fair proposal be 10-6, 8-5 or something else? Tough question I realize, but I was wondering what some of the stronger players that want a good game offer as handicaps. I am a decent breaker.

Thanks,
Chuck

Half a ball can sometimes change a game around. You might go to 9/7, 8/7 or just 9/7 if the other player will go for it. 10/6 or 8/5 is huge jump from 8/7 and you are not likely to get that.

androd · Jun 9, 2012

jrhendy said:
Half a ball can sometimes change a game around. You might go to 9/7, 8/7 or just 9/7 if the other player will go for it. 10/6 or 8/5 is huge jump from 8/7 and you are not likely to get that.

Yes, I agree.
You don't want to go to a higher number.

Even 7/6 would be a little better for you.

Rod.

tylerdurden · Jun 9, 2012

Negotiating is probably just as important as pool playing. From what I heard you say, you will want at least 8 to 6. But, here is the thing, you don't ask for 8 to 6 if you want 8 to 6. Tell him he has been beating on you, and you are having nightmares about his beautiful stroke knocking in the 8th ball so smoothly every time, and you need something like 9 to 6 and the breaks. Then watch and be amazed, from his very mouth that man will give you himself the 8 to 6 you were looking for from the start. But don't jump on it too quick, act like it is so tough. Then, let him know that you are ok playin a little 8 to 6 if he gets the first round and have a great day of playing one pocket

gulfportdoc · Jun 9, 2012

ccaranna said:
Which is a bigger advantage to the weaker player, short or natural handicaps?

For instance, I am the weaker player and get beat consistently in 8-7 matches with the fellow I always play. I can usually pocket 4 or 5. Would the next best fair proposal be 10-6, 8-5 or something else? Tough question I realize, but I was wondering what some of the stronger players that want a good game offer as handicaps. I am a decent breaker.

Chuck, readjusting depends upon lots of variables. But if you break well, then your opponent might agree to giving you all the breaks, or possibly 3 out of 4. Although that might be too big of an advantage for you.

What the others are saying is that you'd be better to look at a lower ball count for yourself. Statistically, the next more favorable spot for you would be 10-8, but that would put you at a higher count, and at a disadvantage, unless your opponent is not a strong ball runner.

Then comes 9-7, which he might agree to. You'd probably be sitting good at 8-6 if he'd give it to you. A lot of it depends on how one-sided his wins have been. The larger the difference between your ball counts would translate either to his going to a higher number, or you going to a lower number. But if the games are close, then fine tuning might only require your getting the break more often.

Let us know how y'all adjusted, and how it turned out.

Doc

ccaranna · Jun 9, 2012

gulfportdoc said:
Chuck, readjusting depends upon lots of variables. But if you break well, then your opponent might agree to giving you all the breaks, or possibly 3 out of 4. Although that might be too big of an advantage for you.

What the others are saying is that you'd be better to look at a lower ball count for yourself. Statistically, the next more favorable spot for you would be 10-8, but that would put you at a higher count, and at a disadvantage, unless your opponent is not a strong ball runner.

Then comes 9-7, which he might agree to. You'd probably be sitting good at 8-6 if he'd give it to you. A lot of it depends on how one-sided his wins have been. The larger the difference between your ball counts would translate either to his going to a higher number, or you going to a lower number. But if the games are close, then fine tuning might only require your getting the break more often.

Let us know how y'all adjusted, and how it turned out.

Doc[/SIZE][/FONT]

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention I can play decent safeties most of the time with the occasional mild sell out, but he is a very good at banks. I'm not bad at banking for pocket speed, but my position play needs improvement. I can muster 2 ball runs now and again when I get the chance, but he is a better shot maker overall. I thought maybe about leaving it at 8-7 with no penalties on fouls (for me), but that proposition was a no-go.

I find the whole negotiating process in order to find a competitive balance fascinating.

tonygreen · Jun 9, 2012

We are assuming that you've looked at the handicap chart found on this site, if you haven't yet, it is located under the "playing the game" button in the menu.

I am with Tyler on this one, with one exception ask for even more. Ask for 8 to 4 and play at 8 to 5.

8 to 7 and the breaks is where you may end up. Whatever you do, tell him you can only count to 5 from now on.

cheers

ccaranna · Sep 28, 2012

I wanted to follow up on this:

We agreed on 9-6 with no special break or foul provisions and it works out well. It's about a 50/50 win/loss split, but I don't feel like he has an insurmountable edge when it was an even 8-8 game. When I win it's usually 6-6 or 6-7. He can still win big 9-3 or 9-4, but it's usually because I make a mistake and get greedy and aggressive. Otherwise the games I win are drawn out battles.

Thanks for the advice.

Chuck

wincardona · Sep 28, 2012

ccaranna said:
I wanted to follow up on this:

We agreed on 9-6 with no special break or foul provisions and it works out well. It's about a 50/50 win/loss split, but I don't feel like he has an insurmountable edge when it was an even 8-8 game. When I win it's usually 6-6 or 6-7. He can still win big 9-3 or 9-4, but it's usually because I make a mistake and get greedy and aggressive. Otherwise the games I win are drawn out battles.

Thanks for the advice.

Chuck

Seems to me you need 9-6 from how you are talking. I apologize if i'm offending you but you seem to me that you're very new at matching up:sorry If you're getting 9-6 and it's evening out...that's great... can't ask for more than that,

Good luck in your game.

Dr. Bill

senor · Sep 29, 2012

ccaranna said:
I find the whole negotiating process in order to find a competitive balance fascinating.

There's a fine line between fascinating and tedious.

Frank Almanza · Sep 29, 2012

tylerdurden said:
Negotiating is probably just as important as pool playing. From what I heard you say, you will want at least 8 to 6. But, here is the thing, you don't ask for 8 to 6 if you want 8 to 6. Tell him he has been beating on you, and you are having nightmares about his beautiful stroke knocking in the 8th ball so smoothly every time, and you need something like 9 to 6 and the breaks. Then watch and be amazed, from his very mouth that man will give you himself the 8 to 6 you were looking for from the start. But don't jump on it too quick, act like it is so tough. Then, let him know that you are ok playin a little 8 to 6 if he gets the first round and have a great day of playing one pocket

Pretty smooth. Are you a car salesman?

gulfportdoc · Sep 29, 2012

ccaranna said:
I wanted to follow up on this: We agreed on 9-6 with no special break or foul provisions and it works out well. It's about a 50/50 win/loss split, but I don't feel like he has an insurmountable edge when it was an even 8-8 game. When I win it's usually 6-6 or 6-7. He can still win big 9-3 or 9-4, but it's usually because I make a mistake and get greedy and aggressive. Otherwise the games I win are drawn out battles. Thanks for the advice. Chuck

Chuck, it sounds like you and your opponent found the right match-up. Y'all will have a lot of good contests now. 'Preciate you're following up with us. Sometimes guys will come on here asking for free advice (oftentimes that's all it's worth

), but then you never hear from them again.

Best to you~ Doc

beatle · Sep 30, 2012

if you are losing and only getting to four balls you need like 8 to 4. if he wont give it to you you move on. maybe 8 to 5 if you can slow him down some. otherwise you are just giving him your money less quickly.
i love all the guys telling you to ask for 8 to 6. that is like going to the races and your horses always come in third and someone telling you to bet place.

Short vs. natural handicaps

ccaranna

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jrhendy

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androd

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tylerdurden

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gulfportdoc

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ccaranna

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tonygreen

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ccaranna

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senor

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