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Old 08-22-2014, 05:29 PM
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Default ....PJ....this is my definition of English.....

…..my definition for English that has Evolved over the years...thru the process of "trial and error"....and that I have come to accept as my own is this:

………..the SPIN around the Vertical or Horizontal axis deliberately imparted to a CB that is driven by the impact from the Cue Tip……this…….English has a marked effect on the CB rebound angle off of cushions ……though not off of the OB……unless DRAW or FOLLOW is added……..and is thus crucial for gaining shape ……..and it can also be used to throw an OB causing it to veer off its otherwise expected trajectory……as in……”to cheat the pocket”…….and for other effects……

…the 5 types of English are as follows:

1. Draw
2. Follow
3. Inside
4. Outside
5. Passing

……Draw is the reversing of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis…..of the CB….before and after contact with the OB……the range varies from…slowing down to actually reversing the forward motion of the CB…..

……Follow is the exaggeration of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis …..of the CB……after contact with the OB…..

……Inside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis…of the CB…which is derived by striking the CB on the side……away from the cut angle of the shot itself….. and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….toward the cut angle….

….Outside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis….of the CB… which is derived by striking the CB on the side....toward the cut angle of the shot itself…..and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….away from the cut angle….

…….Passing is the natural gear action of Friction toward the cut angle……transferred to the OB by the forward and angular (to the OB) travel of the CB …..when it impacts the OB…..without the assistance of side English……(draw will exaggerate this and follow will decrease it)



.......(imo) "the decision to use....side spin ...and which (inside or outside) to use......should be qualified by considering the following"....

…...is my primary reason for using side spin,

1. to increase throw of the OB already directed by the passing English ?....

2. to counteract the passing English ...and alter the trajectory of the OB ?....

3. to control the path of the CB ?...

4. a combination of the above ?.....


...#1 uses inside English to impart a of change of OB trajectory toward the cut angle of the shot....

...#2 uses outside English to negate the passing English and alter the natural trajectory of the OB away from the cut angle of the shot…..

…..#3 uses English to control the trajectory of the CB after contact with an OB or a rail….(unless a Masse’ is produced whereby the trajectory of the CB changes before contact with the OB...and inside English allowing the contact point to be beyond the line of sight (the Bowling ball affect))

……#4 is like multi tasking…..controlling the trajectory of the OB…and at the same time the trajectory of the CB….before and or after contact with the OB (much more difficult).....


.......You can see how that affects your decision to use...the side spin....by polling your use during play......after you use the side spin....think back and see.........what was the.....the primary reason for the use.......of the side spin ?.....

....(imo) I think You'll find that the primary reason...is to control...the CB......and the throw on the OB is secondary.....

.......that being said.....the throw of the OB...is an essential part of any shot...and needs to be addressed....to achieve the correct contact point on the OB to pocket or position it….

......now because my definition is an ongoing evolutionary process....I humbly and readily accept any and all....corrections or contributions to it......
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:09 PM
jtompilot jtompilot is offline
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Originally Posted by onepocket926 View Post
…..my definition for English that has Evolved over the years...thru the process of "trial and error"....and that I have come to accept as my own is this:

………..the SPIN around the Vertical or Horizontal axis deliberately imparted to a CB that is driven by the impact from the Cue Tip……this…….English has a marked effect on the CB rebound angle off of cushions ……though not off of the OB……unless DRAW or FOLLOW is added……..and is thus crucial for gaining shape ……..and it can also be used to throw an OB causing it to veer off its otherwise expected trajectory……as in……”to cheat the pocket”…….and for other effects……

…the 5 types of English are as follows:

1. Draw
2. Follow
3. Inside
4. Outside
5. Passing

……Draw is the reversing of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis…..of the CB….before and after contact with the OB……the range varies from…slowing down to actually reversing the forward motion of the CB…..

……Follow is the exaggeration of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis …..of the CB……after contact with the OB…..

……Inside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis…of the CB…which is derived by striking the CB on the side……away from the cut angle of the shot itself….. and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….toward the cut angle….

….Outside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis….of the CB… which is derived by striking the CB on the side....toward the cut angle of the shot itself…..and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….away from the cut angle….

…….Passing is the natural gear action of Friction toward the cut angle……transferred to the OB by the forward and angular (to the OB) travel of the CB …..when it impacts the OB…..without the assistance of side English……(draw will exaggerate this and follow will decrease it)



.......(imo) "the decision to use....side spin ...and which (inside or outside) to use......should be qualified by considering the following"....

…...is my primary reason for using side spin,

1. to increase throw of the OB already directed by the passing English ?....

2. to counteract the passing English ...and alter the trajectory of the OB ?....

3. to control the path of the CB ?...

4. a combination of the above ?.....


...#1 uses inside English to impart a of change of OB trajectory toward the cut angle of the shot....

...#2 uses outside English to negate the passing English and alter the natural trajectory of the OB away from the cut angle of the shot…..

…..#3 uses English to control the trajectory of the CB after contact with an OB or a rail….(unless a Masse’ is produced whereby the trajectory of the CB changes before contact with the OB...and inside English allowing the contact point to be beyond the line of sight (the Bowling ball affect))

……#4 is like multi tasking…..controlling the trajectory of the OB…and at the same time the trajectory of the CB….before and or after contact with the OB (much more difficult).....


.......You can see how that affects your decision to use...the side spin....by polling your use during play......after you use the side spin....think back and see.........what was the.....the primary reason for the use.......of the side spin ?.....

....(imo) I think You'll find that the primary reason...is to control...the CB......and the throw on the OB is secondary.....

.......that being said.....the throw of the OB...is an essential part of any shot...and needs to be addressed....to achieve the correct contact point on the OB to pocket or position it….

......now because my definition is an ongoing evolutionary process....I humbly and readily accept any and all....corrections or contributions to it......
Minor correction: Side spin(english) Friction does throw the QB off line a small amount.

I have never considered follow or draw english. Only side spin is english. Maybe thats just me.

Over spin happens with the large billiard balls and super slick cloth. Although I do believe it can be done at the top miss cue limit it wouldnt last very long. The other day someone on youtube demonstrated that it can't happen with pool balls. Not sure about the science on that one.

I thought a sliding QB will impart the most passing (collision induced) english

Last edited by jtompilot; 08-22-2014 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jtompilot View Post
Minor correction: Side spin(english) Friction does throw the QB off line a small amount.

I have never considered follow or draw english. Only side spin is english. Maybe thats just me.

Over spin happens with the large billiard balls and super slick cloth. Although I do believe it can be done at the top miss cue limit it wouldnt last very long. The other day someone on youtube demonstrated that it can't happen with pool balls. Not sure about the science on that one.

I thought a sliding QB will impart the most passing (collision induced) english
....hmmmmm !!!!

....are You positive that what You're seeing.....isn't the rebound of the CB off of the OB ?
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:13 PM
lll lll is offline
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i dont think of follow and draw as "english"
side spin ie hits off the vertical axis is "english to me
also to me the vertical axis is the vertical line thru the center of the cue ball and perpendicular to the table
this site is a science guys great reference site
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html
if you scroll down you will see the section on english is listed as
english (sidespin)
sidespin bolded by me for emphasis
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:53 PM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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now because my definition is an ongoing evolutionary process....I humbly and readily accept any and all....corrections or contributions to it...
I would delete "deliberately."

I (too often) inadvertently induce sidespin because of a poor stroke. I wouldn't think it wrong to call that inadvertent side spin "english."

I'm ambivalent about whether to consider draw and follow "english." According to Danny DiLiberto's story about how the term came about, I think it had to do with the excessive sidespin a particular player used effectively, so I lean that way.

Last edited by LSJohn; 08-22-2014 at 08:56 PM. Reason: add
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lll View Post
i dont think of follow and draw as "english"
side spin ie hits off the vertical axis is "english to me
also to me the vertical axis is the vertical line thru the center of the cue ball and perpendicular to the table
this site is a science guys great reference site
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html
if you scroll down you will see the section on english is listed as
english (sidespin)
sidespin bolded by me for emphasis
....I see where You're coming from.....I've seen the same definition of not including the draw or follow (in England they refer to it as....side and not English....go figure )......

.......but with the spin that they invoke.....I include them in my definition.....so that I can deal with all of the spin inducing hits....(which are commonly used together).....on the same level......

...like I said...it's a constantly evolving definition....

....thanks for the input.....
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:02 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onepocket926 View Post
…..my definition for English that has Evolved over the years...thru the process of "trial and error"....and that I have come to accept as my own is this:

………..the SPIN around the Vertical or Horizontal axis deliberately imparted to a CB that is driven by the impact from the Cue Tip……this…….English has a marked effect on the CB rebound angle off of cushions ……though not off of the OB……unless DRAW or FOLLOW is added……..and is thus crucial for gaining shape ……..and it can also be used to throw an OB causing it to veer off its otherwise expected trajectory……as in……”to cheat the pocket”…….and for other effects……
I agree with all of this, except I probably wouldn't call follow or draw "English" (but that's a minor semantic concern).

Quote:
…the 5 types of English are as follows:

1. Draw
2. Follow
3. Inside
4. Outside
5. Passing

……Draw is the reversing of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis…..of the CB….before and after contact with the OB……the range varies from…slowing down to actually reversing the forward motion of the CB…..

……Follow is the exaggeration of the natural rotation on its horizontal axis …..of the CB……after contact with the OB…..
I'd say "Draw is any reverse rotation remaining on the CB after contact, causing it change direction toward the shooter." and "Follow is any forward rotation remaining on the CB after contact, causing it to change direction away from the shooter."

Quote:
……Inside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis…of the CB…which is derived by striking the CB on the side……away from the cut angle of the shot itself….. and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….toward the cut angle….
I'd say "Inside spin is horizontal spin (around the vertical axis) used with a cut shot, caused by striking the cue ball on the same side as the direction (left or right) that the OB will go. Inside spin causes the CB's surface to rub across the OB's surface in the direction of CB travel, causing friction that tends to "throw" the OB slightly off the line of CB/OB centers (the cut angle) in the direction of CB travel."

The reason I'd say "tends to throw the OB" is because if there's too much rubbing speed from the combined collision speed and sidespin speed, then there's less throw.

Quote:
….Outside is the imparting of a spin on the Vertical axis….of the CB… which is derived by striking the CB on the side....toward the cut angle of the shot itself…..and forcing the gear action of Friction to throw the OB onto a caused trajectory….away from the cut angle….
I'd say "Outside spin is horizontal spin (around the vertical axis) used with a cut shot, caused by striking the cue ball on the opposite side as the direction (left or right) that the OB will go. Outside spin causes the CB's surface to "roll" across the OB's surface, reducing the rubbing speed caused by the collision of the balls. This may reduce or increase the rubbing friction between the balls (depending on the resulting net rubbing speed), reducing or increasing "collision induced throw".

Quote:
…….Passing is the natural gear action of Friction toward the cut angle……transferred to the OB by the forward and angular (to the OB) travel of the CB …..when it impacts the OB…..without the assistance of side English……(draw will exaggerate this and follow will decrease it)
I'd say "On cut shots the CB strikes the OB at an angle so that the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface in the direction of CB travel, causing friction that tends to "throw" the OB slightly off the line of CB/OB centers in the direction of CB travel."

Quote:
......(imo) "the decision to use....side spin ...and which (inside or outside) to use......should be qualified by considering the following"....

…...is my primary reason for using side spin,

1. to increase throw of the OB already directed by the passing English ?....

2. to counteract the passing English ...and alter the trajectory of the OB ?....

3. to control the path of the CB ?...

4. a combination of the above ?.....
I'd add that the decision should also include a "risk/reward" analysis: Does the spin make this shot harder than the next one would be if I didn't use spin?

Quote:
...#1 uses inside English to impart a of change of OB trajectory toward the cut angle of the shot....
I'd say "...a slight change of OB direction in the direction of CB travel."

Quote:
...#2 uses outside English to negate the passing English and alter the natural trajectory of the OB away from the cut angle of the shot…..
I'd say "...to reduce the rubbing speed of the CB/OB surfaces, which may reduce or increase the rubbing friction between the balls (depending on the resulting net rubbing speed), reducing or increasing "collision induced throw".

Quote:
…..#3 uses English to control the trajectory of the CB after contact with an OB or a rail….(unless a Masse’ is produced whereby the trajectory of the CB changes before contact with the OB...and inside English allowing the contact point to be beyond the line of sight (the Bowling ball affect))
Just a comment: masse can also change the CB's direction after contact with the OB. Here's a video by Mike Page about that:

Quote:
……#4 is like multi tasking…..controlling the trajectory of the OB…and at the same time the trajectory of the CB….before and or after contact with the OB (much more difficult).....


.......You can see how that affects your decision to use...the side spin....by polling your use during play......after you use the side spin....think back and see.........what was the.....the primary reason for the use.......of the side spin ?.....

....(imo) I think You'll find that the primary reason...is to control...the CB......and the throw on the OB is secondary.....

.......that being said.....the throw of the OB...is an essential part of any shot...and needs to be addressed....to achieve the correct contact point on the OB to pocket or position it….

......now because my definition is an ongoing evolutionary process....I humbly and readily accept any and all....corrections or contributions to it......
You asked for it!

Hope you'll take my comments in the spirit they're intended: not to critique, but to share info that may be helpful and clarify both of our comments.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-22-2014 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:20 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtompilot View Post
Over spin happens with the large billiard balls and super slick cloth. Although I do believe it can be done at the top miss cue limit it wouldnt last very long. The other day someone on youtube demonstrated that it can't happen with pool balls. Not sure about the science on that one.
If you're talking about "follow overspin", I agree. Here's another video by Mike Page about that (to see lots of Mike's excellent instructional videos, search YouTube for "Fargo Billiards"):

Quote:
I thought a sliding QB will impart the most passing (collision induced) english
Yes, that's true. Also, slower imparts more than faster.

pj
chgo
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If you're talking about "follow overspin", I agree. Here's another video by Mike Page about that (to see lots of Mike's excellent instructional videos, search YouTube for "Fargo Billiards"): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs


Yes, that's true. Also, slower imparts more than faster.

pj
chgo
....I thought it interesting that all of the after contact Masse's....were in fact...jump shots...

.....using the directional change (forward to backward)....that is induced by applying draw and having the CB....rolling down the face of the OB.....back towards the shooter....

.....then just as in a normal Masse'.....as soon as the friction takes over...the CB curves.....in the direction of the side English....
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:45 PM
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mr3cushion mr3cushion is offline
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Patrick; You're right I shouldn't of taken it out on this guy, I apologize! I've been taking a lot of shit on this site lately and just vented! I hope you can understand!

If the guy wants help with corrections, I have NO problem with that! Have him PM me here.

Once again, I apologize to ALL!

Last edited by mr3cushion; 08-22-2014 at 10:20 PM.
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