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  #11  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:08 PM
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Cowboy Dennis Cowboy Dennis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
Newman, Gleason and the fag, over Fats?!.

Freddy,

You almost made me spill my Miller Lite with this line. I'll have to be more careful in the future when reading your posts.

Dennis
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis
Freddy,

You almost made me spill my Miller Lite with this line. I'll have to be more careful in the future when reading your posts.

Dennis
RBL.

I would question ANYONE from Chicago, being able to tell the difference between a Fag, a Tranny, a runaway hillbilly, or a cheap Chicago hooker...(or even an alligator)...to them, it appears to be all the same.....sex is sex..

(the Beard is venturing into an area he had best not get into,... with the San-man).

San <---has much higher standards...

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-01-2009 at 08:56 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:38 PM
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"New York Fats" was an exceedingly clever con man who stole the persona of "Minnestoa Fats" from Walter Tevis. The character in the book did not resemble Wanderone in the slightest, nor did the Jackie Gleason character in the movie version. I doubt that Tevis had ever even heard of Wanderone. Tevis was living in Lexington, KY in 1959 when he wrote The Hustler.

The question is, was Fats a good enough one-pocket player in back room action to be considered for our HOF; or alternatively was his influence strong enough in the history or promotion of 1P to be considered via the Teachers and Promoters category?

If he does not qualify under one of these two, then he is not HOF material, despite his cleverly self-promoted fame.

Doc
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  #14  
Old 11-02-2009, 02:01 AM
demonrho demonrho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX
RBL.

I would question ANYONE from Chicago, being able to tell the difference between a Fag, a Tranny, a runaway hillbilly, or a cheap Chicago hooker...
Now that one made me spill my Guiness Stout
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  #15  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
I guess so Stevo, since he got George and Paulie to put on the first ever, One pocket tourn ever held.
Da Beard

Here is the link from my site for the greatest pool article ever written. A Hustlers Holiday in the Lions Den, by Tom Fox. Tell ya a little sumptin about Fatty.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...80/1/index.htm
Beardman,

You'll go to any lengths to try and prove your point won't you. How can you call that the "Greatest pool article ever written" ?... YOU have written better, more believable stories yourself. (Gar, the Iron Man...for one)
It's just not like you to acquiesce.

It was not hard to tell that Fox was mesmerised by Fatty's persona, Just like Harry Reasoner was, with Puckett when he did the "60 minute" bit.

It's also not hard for an insider to tell when someone does not understand the "real" pool world, but has enough literary skill to put down a decent story, that the average man on the street can comprehend.
Jim McKay... of WWOS, had the same qualities when he was there televising things. Both are good at what they do, but they don't always really understand the nuts and bolts of the sport they are covering. (Somebody like Joe Rogan might pull it off nicely)

I'm sure Mr. Fox took notes, and interviewed Fatty and a few other notables, but we both know, it was because of Fat's barrage of comical chatter, (and woofing) that made him the central character of his short story.
5 years later, he wrote an excellent article on Hubert Cokes, by that time, he had a little more "pool schoolhousin' " under his belt.

S.I. or "Wide World of Sports"... were not noted for their coverage of ANY pool event at that time. And I might add, they have given very few nods to our sport, since those early days, when pool was a hot item, because of the success of "THE HUSTLER"... BY WALTER TEVIS !!!

Sure Newman and Gleason had other interests. Just maybe their exposure to "Sourpuss" Mosconi (tech advisor for the movie) was all they needed to see, of the pool world. Are you saying Newman was not a generous person, who gave away many millions to different charities. To me, that transcends anything ANY ego driven pool player EVER did.

There are numerous holes in Fox's story, I would venture to say, there were several guys in that room, that could have dug Fat's a hole he couldn't have gotten out of...even getting weight.

Danny was probably the weakest 1P player in the whole joint, at that first tournament, and I really doubt, that either he, or Fat's (or Cokes) would have "doubled up" every session...don't you ?

I would like to hear Marshall's take, on how many guy's could have given Fatty a ball or two for the cash. I know of 3 or 4 (including Squirrell) for sure.

And if you are going to tell "bite stories on yourself.... please do not be so thin skinned as to take offense if I tease you a little.. sheeesh!!

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-02-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:41 AM
Fatboy Fatboy is offline
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i awalys vote for the fat guy.
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  #17  
Old 11-02-2009, 08:56 AM
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Default Fats didnt steal anything from Tevis

Quote:
Originally Posted by gulfportdoc
"New York Fats" was an exceedingly clever con man who stole the persona of "Minnestoa Fats" from Walter Tevis. The character in the book did not resemble Wanderone in the slightest, nor did the Jackie Gleason character in the movie version. I doubt that Tevis had ever even heard of Wanderone. Tevis was living in Lexington, KY in 1959 when he wrote The Hustler.

The question is, was Fats a good enough one-pocket player in back room action to be considered for our HOF; or alternatively was his influence strong enough in the history or promotion of 1P to be considered via the Teachers and Promoters category?

If he does not qualify under one of these two, then he is not HOF material, despite his cleverly self-promoted fame.

Doc
Just to qualify myself, and defer to San Man's unfounded point that I havent given Tevis his due, I read the book within minutes of its publication. I also read the precursor to the book, the article he wrote for Playboy magazine. Once I got the book I read it cover to cover. As soon as I got to the last page and finished that, I flipped back to the first page and started all over. I have read that book a minimum of five times. To say, Doc, that the character in the book didnt resemble Fats in the slightest is a remark that I wont let stand. How many great, FAT, big money pool hustlers were there in the US at that time? How many of them had a nervous tic? How many of them played in Bensingers (Benningtons)? Lets see, how many pool players were as "dainty and meticulous" around the table as the book Fats? Certainly not me, or 90% of the pool players that I know. Most of us are slobs around the table, if nobodys looking, I might spit on the floor. How about the "light on the feet?" All the fat people I know are light on their feet, right? Let's next check on "coiffed," like the expensively coiffed Fats in the book. Anybody ever see Fatty with a hair out of place, or a dirty or rumpled shirt, or anything other than expensive shoes, shirt and slacks? Apparently you didnt spend much time around Fats, Doc. Finally, and this is really a tough one to get past, how many of them were named "Fats?"

Now to the "Tevis never heard of him." Here below is a link to a Sports Illustrated story about hustlers that mentions New York Fats in an article dated March 1961, seven months BEFORE the first Johnston City tourn. Tevis also knew, and had been to Bensingers as is evidenced by his description of the room in the book. But the strongest case to be made, and no one has even asked me about it, was his knowledge of that shit little pool room on State Street where he writes about the Tom Smith character. I name the date, the place, and the guy, and everybody just blows right past that. This is getting to be like talking to my ex wife. Ignore, deny, and change to subject.
So Tevis knew about an obscure Tom Smith, but Minnesota Fats came to him in a literary apparition. Just because most of you never heard of Tom Smith aint an argument. There are plenty of people still around that did.

More examples of my PERSONAL EXPERIENCES being peed on: the question of could Fats actually play? Didnt I cite earlier in this thread that Fats challenged, and got down with Squirrel, one pocket dead even for $400 a game in Tampa in 64 or 65 -- and ran 8 and out 4 games in a row? Squirrel played as good as anybody at that time. What am I, some kind of bullshitter? Anything I say on these forums about what happened, especially about someone else, I will bet my money on it being the truth. I might add a little color to my own adventures, but even there, if I tell you a spot I gave or received, or who I beat, you can bet your Granny's soc sec check on it.
Weenie Beanie and Strawberry Brooks are in the OnePocket HOF. Fats would have robbed Strawberry, and I would have bet on him against Beanie. I beat Strawberry out of $10,000 in Chicago at Bob Agins black pool room on the South Side; yeah, the same one from the Color of Money -- playing dead even. Sugar Shack Johnny Novak was in with me, and he is still alive. Notice how I name names and places when I claim something. I never thought I could beat Fats playing one pocket, but I did believe I could beat Beanie.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...2373/index.htm

the Beard
Do I gotta go to the 40k he beat Riche Florence out of, or have I pontificated enough?
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  #18  
Old 11-02-2009, 09:35 AM
lfigueroa lfigueroa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
Newman, Gleason and the fag, over Fats?!! Tevis is full of shit saying, "work of fiction, no real people." Bull shit! He told me that same bag of puce in Dayton OH. In the book he describes a rat joint that I played in on Congress and State, to a tee, a real place; hamburger joint up front, pool tables in the back. He has a guy in there that is supposedly fictional. He is the first guy that Eddie plays after his thumbs heal. The old slavic guy that took up hustling after he came to America in his 50s. That was Tom Smith, my good friend. There aint no coincidence like that. Two slavs that took up pool in their 50s? And if you knew Tom, like I did, Tevis's description of him is dead on. Tom hustled pool up until he was a 100 years old! He was a gigolo when he was in his eighties. Big, strong, bull of a man. Faught off a stick up guy when he was 90. Refused to give up the money to a man with a .45. Took a pistol whipping instead. I'd walk thru a long puddle of Figeroa's bullsh*t, in my bare feet, to spend some time around Fats.
At Johnston City, any broke, young pool player could get an automatic hot $20 bill from Fatty, no questions asked. A $20 bite back then was a weeks rent and 3 or 4 meals. That I know from personal experience. A guy named Lindy who used to live down there, when he found out I was empty, he said, c'mon with me, Fatty will put you in action. Lindy intro'd me to Fats as a young, broke pool player, and Fatty hit his roll and peeled off a tough 20, no problem. There was a line of guys that went on the books. I watched him play Ronnie, nobody can tell me he couldnt play.


the Beard

I know Fat's speed in his prime, from people who knew, like Marcel Camp, Chicago Pony, Gene Skinner and others.

Funny you should mention, "...walk(ing) thru a long puddle of Figeroa's bullsh*t, in my bare feet, to spend some time around Fats" because I was just thinking of Dan McGoorty's comments about Fats:

"I'm sorry, but Minnesota Fats was never a top player. He was good, sure, but not tops. There have always been at least twenty people in the country who would have been glad to swim a river of shit to play Fats for money. Fats won a lot of money in his life, but it was mainly because of the heavy hustle he used. Oh, the stream of bullshit he would pour on people was enough to make you sick. He was afraid to rely on his game alone; he had to constantly irritate the other guy. Either that or he would get his backers to put up so much money that his opponent would crack under the pressure. Even playing somebody like Zsa Zsa Gabor on his television show he was afraid of getting beat, wouldn't let her shoot in peace, kept bothering and distracting her all the time. Now, if a man is afraid to play fair with Zsa Zsa, how do you think he would have done against real players like Wimpy Lassiter, Washington Rags, or even Big-Nose Roberts?"

McGoorty, page 155

Lou Figueroa
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  #19  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:37 AM
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SJDinPHX SJDinPHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa
Funny you should mention, "...walk(ing) thru a long puddle of Figeroa's bullsh*t, in my bare feet, to spend some time around Fats" because I was just thinking of Dan McGoorty's comments about Fats:

"I'm sorry, but Minnesota Fats was never a top player. He was good, sure, but not tops. There have always been at least twenty people in the country who would have been glad to swim a river of shit to play Fats for money. Fats won a lot of money in his life, but it was mainly because of the heavy hustle he used. Oh, the stream of bullshit he would pour on people was enough to make you sick. He was afraid to rely on his game alone; he had to constantly irritate the other guy. Either that or he would get his backers to put up so much money that his opponent would crack under the pressure. Even playing somebody like Zsa Zsa Gabor on his television show he was afraid of getting beat, wouldn't let her shoot in peace, kept bothering and distracting her all the time. Now, if a man is afraid to play fair with Zsa Zsa, how do you think he would have done against real players like Wimpy Lassiter, Washington Rags, or even Big-Nose Roberts?"

McGoorty, page 155

Lou Figueroa
You must have a high dollar edition of the book Lou. It's on page 131-132 in my cheapo paperback.
But to continue on with the 1 1/2 pages Byrne's devoted to Fat's, Mc Goorty goes on to say....

"I suppose I shouldn't say these things, because Fat's was always nice to me. I heard him say once on national TV, 'The only person left in the country who knows anything about three cushion billiards is Danny McGoorty'.
But it is high time somebody stood up and said, that Fat's estimate of his own ability is just part of his act. Why his name is even made up. "Minnesota Fats" is just a nickname, his real name is New York Fats. He started using Minnesota because that's what the fat man was called in the movie The Hustler.
As a promotion man, thats different. He may very well be the all-time greatest promotion, or con man. But a player ?
When he gets on television and says he was the best, and that everybody was afraid to play him, dozens of guys around the country jump out of their chairs and try to get to the toilet before they ruin the rug."

Just pointing out... not all people shared your view of his cuemanship Freddy. And one pocket WAS his best game. It sure as hell wasn't "trick shots". (have you ever seen him make one ?).

Freddy, I am not against Fat's getting the kudos he deserves as one of the greatest, if not THE greatest characters, or hustler's, who ever picked up a cue...But the disagreement we have going here, is how GOOD a player was he ?

You seem to want to hang it all out there and say he beat "everybody he ever played", when you KNOW he was getting weight, from a half drunk Richie Florence, and almost every other top player he ever matched up with.

I would REALLY question the circumstances surrounding him beating Squirrell, EVEN...at any time during the 60's. It's not a question of believing YOU, although you have admitedly been known to shade the truth.(or maybe omit extenuating circumstances, if it better suits your agenda)

What is your point ??? Is it because his roots are in Illinois ? Sorry Fred...but, your not wanting to play Fat's does not make him a shoo-in for the 1P HOF.. <---note smiley faces

PS..One of my adventures with Fatty, is covered in SMAS ( page 299 ) and is attested to by Jersey Red. (also note the quote by Earl Heisler)...I repeat, whats your point ?
Lets give it a rest Fred, you have your take on Fat's ..and myself and quite a few others, have ours.

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-02-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:23 PM
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Default What a reference, Danny McGoorty

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa
Funny you should mention, "...walk(ing) thru a long puddle of Figeroa's bullsh*t, in my bare feet, to spend some time around Fats" because I was just thinking of Dan McGoorty's comments about Fats:

"I'm sorry, but Minnesota Fats was never a top player. He was good, sure, but not tops. There have always been at least twenty people in the country who would have been glad to swim a river of shit to play Fats for money. Fats won a lot of money in his life, but it was mainly because of the heavy hustle he used. Oh, the stream of bullshit he would pour on people was enough to make you sick. He was afraid to rely on his game alone; he had to constantly irritate the other guy. Either that or he would get his backers to put up so much money that his opponent would crack under the pressure. Even playing somebody like Zsa Zsa Gabor on his television show he was afraid of getting beat, wouldn't let her shoot in peace, kept bothering and distracting her all the time. Now, if a man is afraid to play fair with Zsa Zsa, how do you think he would have done against real players like Wimpy Lassiter, Washington Rags, or even Big-Nose Roberts?"

McGoorty, page 155

Lou Figueroa
You used the right guy to talk about how much bullsh*t and self promotion Fats did. Mcgoorty was originally from Chicago so his story is known to us peoples. His book is filled with as much unadultered horse dung as the stables at Churchill Downs. Ask Grady what a wonderful reference point Danny McGoorty was, and how much you could rely on his word. The only thing he told the truth about was that he was a drunken lout.

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Last edited by fred bentivegna; 11-02-2009 at 02:00 PM.
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