Go Back   OnePocket.org Forums > One Pocket Forum
Register FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:14 PM
androd's Avatar
androd androd is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New Braunfels tx.
Posts: 7,111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis
Rod,

I have a question for you: Have you been drinking tequila tonight???

Cowboy "Jameson Drinker" Dennis
Last nite, jusy voudka and beer tonite.
Rod.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:50 PM
lll lll is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: vero beach fl
Posts: 14,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona
Larry,
this is an excellent question and I will try to explain how these things (spots)are evaluated.

Basically we have 2 kinds of spots ....intangeable spots...,and single ball spots..

.INTANGEABLE SPOTS: like Giving up the break, or two hit and the pick. or a free push (free scratch) scratches don't count, two and stop,ect.ect. GET IT? These types of spots (handicapps) are evaluated by playing them a countless number of times and sharing information with other players who have played them and get their FEEL on how much they think their worth.

That's why, even today we really can't put a true ball value on the strength of the break, or two hit and the pick, or scratches don't count, or two and stop. or even one free push, believe it or not. All of the above spots, and there are many more that haven't been discussed, all carry that blanket of intangeable, sprinkled with discretionary decisions that keeps everything clouded to the point that it's still not clear what they are worth.

SINGLE BALL SPOTS : Like 8 to7, or 10 to 8, 10 to 7, 18 to 4, or any spot that it is not clouded with something that would preclude you from understanding that there is an advantage, and who has it. Plus it's much easier to renegotiate something that is obvious to the eye, and pocket.

Word of advice. In all intangeable spots, always refer to a proposition man like Jack Cooney, or the Freddies, and Rodney's of the world to get their opinion before getting involved. After all it's all discretionary.

Trust me, i'm a doctor.

Billy I.
DR.BILL
your explanation that the only way the free scratch could be evaluated was after multiple games with and without it and analyzzing the result between the 2 players playing
if this was done among many match ups among many players ( like 2 hits antthe pick or results after the break) we could determine a concensus opinion based on results what the free scratch is worth.
although arties mathematical calculation is accurate
i dont beleive the player getting 20-10 the free scratch means as much as the player getting 8-4
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstroud
One thing about the free scratch that has not be mentioned is the fact that a weak player ofter chooses the wrong time to take one. In my experience weak players often take a scratch for a sure safety and give up the opportunity to take a small risk for a more aggressive shot.

I know the hardest weak players to spot and beat were always the ones that shot at everything. Giving an aggressive weak player 8 to 4 was always tough.

Billy Stroud
Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:24 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lll
DR.BILL
your explanation that the only way the free scratch could be evaluated was after multiple games with and without it and analyzzing the result between the 2 players playing
if this was done among many match ups among many players ( like 2 hits antthe pick or results after the break) we could determine a concensus opinion based on results what the free scratch is worth.
although arties mathematical calculation is accurate
i dont beleive the player getting 20-10 the free scratch means as much as the player getting 8-4
That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:29 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????
The shorter the game the better the free scratch ie. Because you can put your oponent in a spot were he has too take a scratch back. And your scratch is free and his will coset him a ball.

But if you keep taking scratches with him. You are taking way the worst off it. Even with your free dcratch. Because you are not getting the correct price . When its scratch for scratch. Do you agree with this. If not then Explain WHY???
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:35 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.
And if the weak player takes the scratch at the wrong time. Then the scratch is worth more too the better player.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:41 PM
gulfportdoc's Avatar
gulfportdoc gulfportdoc is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Gulfport, Mississippi
Posts: 9,250
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
THe handy cap Rule needs to change with a free scratch... If someone is spotting you 10 to 5, thier sctatches should cost them 2 to 1. It is impossable that both off your scratches should be equal when you are getting 2 to 1 on your balls. I realy hope that you can see how true this is.

If a player is spothing another player 21 to 3 how much is one ball worth compaired too the good players balls? 7 to 1.

So If the week player sctatches it costs him one ball. If the good player scratches it costs him one ball. We all no thats wrong and out off line. But thats they way its been. From the begining. The cooect numder off balls that the good player should pay for a scratch is 7 to 1 .
This is good stuff, and it seems mathematically correct. And by the way, I assume that you're using "scratch" to mean any foul-- such as an intentional foul, a ball jumped off the table, etc.

It's easy to see that if I'm getting 10-5, then my opponent's fouls should be worth 2 to my 1. If he makes a foul he should theoretically owe 2.

What interests me is: what is the value of a scratch on lesser, or more common spots? For example at 10-6, the better player's scratches should be worth 1.66 of the lesser player's. But how could 2/3rds of a ball be valued? How would it be calculated in balls for purposes of handicapping? It seems as though if the better player were to try to equalize the scratch, that he might give 11-6; but that would be 1/3rd ball too much.

And how about the same consideration with 9-7 (1.28), 10-8 (1.24), etc.?

Another thing: If a guy was getting 9-3, that would mean that the better player's scratches would be worth 3 to the lesser player's 1. If they played with that 3-1 stipulation, then aren't they essentially playing even? 9-9? There must be a flaw in there somewhere...

Doc
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:10 PM
One Pocket Ghost's Avatar
One Pocket Ghost One Pocket Ghost is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ghosttown
Posts: 8,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by androd
One other thought that I haven't posted. All the people that posted the free scratch taken at the opportune time would win the game. Well it would also win the game if they weren't getting that free scratch. (Or get really close)
So that may have no bearing on the spot.
Rod.

Rod, Rod, Rod, you keep forgeting who you're dealing with maybe it's an aging thing......no, you are not correcting "all the people" with what you've stated in this post...because where myself and my scenario are concerned, your counter-argument is invalid...in my hypothetical scenario, when the shooter puts his opponent in a deathtrap that wins him the game - he had no way to put the cueball where he needed to, to achieve that with a legal shot - he could only do so by not hitting a ball and a rail, ie. - taking a scratch...

- Fantasma

<--------
__________________
jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????
III To evaluate what a free scratch is worth after many gamesIs completuy wrong and incorrect. Because you are getting the spot in the beginning off the game .

Thats the only realistick way that you can figure out the correvt odds or
percentages. Because What Billy said is incorrect. What he is doing is trying too figure out what he thinks the scratch is worth . By what the player did with his scratch.

And that is useless because the next game has nothing to do with the scratch he took the game before. And every new game it will be a different situation.

And you cannot make the odds on a scratch after the player takes it. What good would it do? And yes you could probable make a price for each game the player takes his scratch.

But it would not have the same value as the start off the game. All you are doing is making up a price off what he thinks the price should be on his scratch he took.

And you will have a different price. And a different situation. And even if he makes a price on the scratch. Before he uses the scratch in that spot. Everyone will make a different price on the scratch.

And he has hag the free scratch available allready. And a nother reason that would not help is because. We dont even no when he is going too use his scratch.

Or maybe he wont use the sdratch at all. But If he does not use the scratch? Then the scratch was worth nothing.

And all off this will not change what the value off one off Daves balls is worth too Gabs balls. And again if Dave or you are not getting a free scratch. Then your ball is worth the percentage off what the spot is.

And that does not change. And if you are getting 8 to 4 and the man spotting you scratches on pourpose. And you scratch back and forth with him. You Will loose. And if he spots you 2 to 1 on balls. Why should you only take one for one.

Because thats what the rules are. And I am sure everybody can see that. And If you are betting any game and you are getting 2 to one. And the game is still a 2 to 1 shoot during the game. You wouldnt take even money. Would you because thats what you are doing. Because off the bad rules.

ITS NOBODYS FAULTE THATS JUST THE WAY THE RULES WERE MADE UP. But the were made up for a even game. 8 to 8 not 20 to 5.

I hope everyone can see this. And waithing for a player to scratch and see what he does with the scratch. Will not help you after he takes the scratch. Because if you make a price after the scratch? What good is it? You are talking about the resulte off the scdatch.

Thisis a lot off work breacking everthing down. Si I hope you can learn from this.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:17 PM
Artie Bodendorfer Artie Bodendorfer is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Bodendorfer
Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.
Welcome too the site. Billy Stroud. I never thought it would be like this when I got older. But I am still thankfull too be her. I never new that it would be so hard for people too agree. Imagine what its like being on a jury?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All original content Copyright Onepocket.org and/or the original author. All rights reserved.