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  #101  
Old 09-08-2012, 07:46 PM
Cowboy Dennis's Avatar
Cowboy Dennis Cowboy Dennis is offline
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Bill, in almost all of my layout posts I ask the question "What Would You Do?" I do not ask what do you think the shooter shot, I do not ask what do you think a "world class banker" would shoot. The question I always ask and the only thing I'd like to know is what would the reader shoot. That's it.

In post #11, in your 1st legitimate response after realizing you were in the Banks forum you seemed to endorse the 1 ball without really coming out and saying it:


Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
I like your reasoning about playing safe but in this situation the balls aren't laying good for either player which makes the bank on the 1ball more appealing. You can take a lower percentage shot imo if the penalty for missing is smaller than the reward for making the bank, which it looks to me it is in this case.

Dr. Bill
Brumback made the 1, then the 5 and then the 6 cross-side. After the 6 he left himself a decent chance on the 9 straight-back but mostly played safe and missed it. When playing Banks you are playing position for your opponent if you miss, making your logic about "You can take a lower percentage shot imo if the penalty for missing is smaller than the reward for making the bank" false logic & reasoning for endorsing the 1 ball. The penalty for missing in this case was the same as for making the ball, three more banks became available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
What do you mean when you say "unless you have to" Kinda confuses me. There are many times that I would shoot a bank that would lead me to an easier bank, am I suppose to not shoot them? For instance if I have a bank that's even money to make and natural position for a bank that i'm 2/1 favorite to make, should I shoot it? I think yes. There are many different scenarios like the preceding one that I will shoot banks that are more difficult than the shot I leave. There are also many scenarios that the score will dictate what shot you should shoot ( that would supersede your axiom)

By the way, I would of shot the 1ball bank too. There are times that you should shoot shots that endorse you as a player, and if you don't then your game often suffers. The 1ball bank falls in that scenario for me, as well as it did for the shooter.

Dr. Bill
In the above quoted post of yours(post #27) you talk about shooting shots that endorse you as a player and only finally say you'd shoot the 1 ball too three days after I show the shot. This is the 1st time you say you'd shoot the 1 ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
There are often times when gamblers are playing one another that they want to show their opponent that it's ok to gamble and shoot shots that are not politically correct shots. This happens alot and both players will play overly aggressive and get to gambling. Then the players will tighten up and play more conservatively. The preceding is called the art of gambling, and it's a way to get your opponent in a gambling mood. But in spite of that strategy the bank on the 1ball wasn't a bad shot(in terms of percentages) simply because you know what you have and there was no guarantee that you were going to leave an easier shot in the event that you missed the bank. Yo're talking like the 1ball bank was a horrible shot when in fact there is benefit in shooting it.Like in football when the quarterback throws a pass, sometimes you got to squeeze one in there.Yeah. Like Favre did with his last 4 passes for the last 4 teams he played for.

Dr. Bill
Still talking about what gamblers might do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
I'm not arguing that playing sound safety's is wrong, when I know it isn't,(like the 2ball safety) but shooting aggressively at times isn't wrong either imo.

Dr. Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
For what it's worth, any world class player would bank the 1ball You decide what's right for you.

Dr. Bill
Only in post #38, your 6th post on the topic, do you introduce what a "World Class Player" would shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
All that's left is....Have a nice day.
Bill,

The question was never "what would a world class player do?" and there's no point introducing it in this thread. The question is "what would you do?". You don't speak for "world class players", you speak only for yourself, and there ain't too many WCP's here giving their opinions anyway.

Let me be perfectly clear: in post #11, your 1st response to the layout, you show the 1 ball to be an incorrect shot since the penalty for missing was greater than/equal to, the reward for making the ball. Everything you wrote in this thread after post #11 is irrelevant. You made the argument for not shooting the 1 ball in the post where you said it was appealing.

In closing, let me say this; If I was playing a "world class player", he'd be giving me weight to make the game fair. In that event I'd love to see him shoot the 1 ball.

You have a nice day too, Big Daddy

Dennis
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  #102  
Old 09-08-2012, 08:54 PM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
Bill, in almost all of my layout posts I ask the question "What Would You Do?" I do not ask what do you think the shooter shot, I do not ask what do you think a "world class banker" would shoot. The question I always ask and the only thing I'd like to know is what would the reader shoot. That's it.

In post #11, in your 1st legitimate response after realizing you were in the Banks forum you seemed to endorse the 1 ball without really coming out and saying it:




Brumback made the 1, then the 5 and then the 6 cross-side. After the 6 he left himself a decent chance on the 9 straight-back but mostly played safe and missed it. When playing Banks you are playing position for your opponent if you miss, making your logic about "You can take a lower percentage shot imo if the penalty for missing is smaller than the reward for making the bank" false logic & reasoning for endorsing the 1 ball. (You're wrong about that, I'll play you from this position all day, any day, and bank at the 1ball, and i'm not a world class player)The penalty for missing in this case was the same as for making the ball, three more banks became available. (Both you and Freddie are using the results of this particular hit as a reasn the bank on the 1ball was a bad choice, using the resulting position as a measuring stick for the penalty, which is absurd. If I bank the 1ball i'm not going to hit it the same as Brumback did. He hit it with speed and put more gamble into the equation.)[ COLOR="blue"]In the above quoted post of yours(post #27) you talk about shooting shots that endorse you as a player and only finally say you'd shoot the 1 ball too three days after I show the shot. This is the 1st time you say you'd shoot the 1 ball.[/COLOR] (I really don't understand where you're going with this, the 1ball bank for me has always been a viable option, simply because to me it falls within the guidelines that I use to determine what a viable option is.)

OLOR="Blue"]Still talking about what gamblers might do.[/COLOR]





Only in post #38, your 6th post on the topic, do you introduce what a "World Class Player" would shoot.



Bill,

The question was never "what would a world class player do?" and there's no point introducing it in this thread. The question is "what would you do?". You don't speak for "world class players", you speak only for yourself, and there ain't too many WCP's here giving their opinions anyway. (What's wrong with me stating imo what a world class player should do? doesn't that lend to the evaluation of the option? I think it does) Let me be perfectly clear: in post #11, your 1st response to the layout, you show the 1 ball to be an incorrect shot since the penalty for missing was greater than/equal to, the reward for making the ball. ( that's my argument, the penalty for missing isn't greater than the reward for making it. That's the part of the equation you don't understand, which I tried to explain in post#42 post#57 and post#65. The bank on the 1ball should not be judged on only the odds on making it, it must be judged... on that... and also if missed what the chances are for your opponent scoring a bank on his next inning and so on. I said that any world class player would be the favorite to get the first ball if he banks the 1ball. That doesn't mean that the only way he can get the first ball is to make the bank, there are other ways he can make the first bank even if he misses the 1ball bank. Banking at the 1ball for any world class banker is an advantage for the shooter, period.) is a bad choice because you're a dog to make it Everything you wrote in this thread after post #11 is irrelevant. You make the argument for not shooting the 1 ball in the post where you said it was appealing.

In closing, let me say this; If I was playing a "world class player", he'd be giving me weight to make the game fair. In that event I'd love to see him shoot the 1 ball.

You have a nice day too, Big Daddy

Dennis
Dennis you're not understanding my argument, i've always said that I would bank the 1ball, which I alluded to in my first post, post#11. I also said that for the reason that the balls aren't laying good for either player makes the bank on the 1ball even more appealing. I didn't say that for that reason alone, did I? Lets leave it like this...you play safe and try to win and i'll bank the 1ball and take my chances...maybe we'll both do well.

Dr. Bill
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  #103  
Old 09-09-2012, 07:08 AM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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Now before Dr Bill's head gets too big, I had better inject a little something. Just because I got tired of banging my head against the wall with you, dont go thinking that you convinced me to shoot the one ball, or that your method was superior, percentage-wise, gambling-wise, or any other kind of wise.

I try to teach pool the way Gene Skinner taught me, situationally. In other words, "what would you do in this SITUATION," not, what would you do with this SHOT. Shots dont repeat themselves but once every millinium, situations occur often.

In the shot/situation depicted in this thread, you chose a SHOT solution, that is, to shoot the 1ball. On this particular shot choice-- and it took you 2 weeks to find a decent response to shooting in the 2ball -- after all the input, it is still debatable whether to shoot one shot or the other. Good arguments on both sides.

And something else not yet mentioned either, is nothing bad happens to the 2ball-in-the-pocket-shooter after you play safe off of the 6ball! The incoming player has an easy return safety. So shooting the 2 ball costs you nothing except an opportunity to wing at the 1ball. Conversely, missing the 1ball could cost you something.

So to be fair, if that SHOT comes up, with those balls lying in that same exact position, your students wouldn't be taking too much the worst of it shooting the 1ball.

However, my point of instruction and advice is regarding SITUATIONS. And my SITUATION can be described as this: It is a very sound practice to shoot off a hanging ball and leave your opponent frozen on the rail with no good shot and a marginal safety return rather than shooting at a medium-difficult (around 8 to 5) straight back in an even-score scenario where you will probably only get the one ball. It is easy to do, no pressure, no stress. The same cannot be said for the 1ball.

And finally, I believe IMO, that there is a price that must be eventually paid in a drawn out session, for challenging yourself when you don't have to, especially when there is a minimum reward (probably only one ball).

Beard
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  #104  
Old 09-09-2012, 12:01 PM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by fred bentivegna View Post
Now before Dr Bill's head gets too big, I had better inject a little something. Just because I got tired of banging my head against the wall with you, dont go thinking that you convinced me to shoot the one ball, or that your method was superior, percentage-wise, gambling-wise, or any other kind of wise. (Good morning, I see you're singing the same song)I try to teach pool the way Gene Skinner taught me, situationally. In other words, "what would you do in this SITUATION," not, what would you do with this SHOT. Shots dont repeat themselves but once every millinium, situations occur often. (That's why I described the situation in terms of not only the degree of difficulty with the bank, but also with how the balls were positioned in regard to the penalty for missing, and the option with the easy to escape safety shooting the 2ball. That seems to me that I described a situation, right?) In the shot/situation depicted in this thread, you chose a SHOT solution, that is, to shoot the 1ball. On this particular shot choice-- and it took you 2 weeks to find a decent response to shooting in the 2ball -- after all the input,( I have always said that the 2ball safety was an easy safety to escape from, look back at my post.) it is still debatable whether to shoot one shot or the other. Good arguments on both sides. (Thank you, coming from you that means a lot )And something else not yet mentioned either, is nothing bad happens to the 2ball-in-the-pocket-shooter after you play safe off of the 6ball! The incoming player has an easy return safety. So shooting the 2 ball costs you nothing except an opportunity to wing at the 1ball. Conversely, missing the 1ball could cost you something. (Just about every shot we shoot is a give and take proposition, with the 2ball safety you aren't taking anything, it's really a wasted shot if you have a better shot...which I think for some they do..)So to be fair, if that SHOT comes up, with those balls lying in that same exact position, your students wouldn't be taking too much the worst of it shooting the 1ball. ( I agree, even though students don't execute as well as top players shooting at the 1ball is still imo just as good or better than shooting in the 2ball, for the reason that their opponents will not be as gifted (ability wise) to take advantage of the opportunity received if the bank is missed.) However, my point of instruction and advice is regarding SITUATIONS. And my SITUATION can be described as this: It is a very sound practice to shoot off a hanging ball and leave your opponent frozen on the rail with no good shot and a marginal safety return rather than shooting at a medium-difficult (around 8 to 5) straight back in an even-score scenario where you will probably only get the one ball. It is easy to do, no pressure, no stress. The same cannot be said for the 1ball. ( That wasn't a fair assement, first..it's not a marginal safety return, it's an easy escape. Second, if you can only get one ball with the bank (as you stated) then if the bank is missed your opponent can't even get a ball off the miss, right? The truth is that either player can get more than one ball, but balls are difficult to get because of the way balls are positioned. There's a chance that only the shooter can get one ball too because of the many different possible results with where the cue ball could end up. And yes the cue ball can end up where you leave an easy return shot, but that an easy shot for either player meaning that the shooter can make the bank and he will be the one to end up with the easy shot. But in this situation after the shooter shoots the 1ball bank there are going to be times when there is no penalty suffered if the bank is missed and there will be times when there is a penalty for missing. But the incoming player still must punish you, and there's no guarantee that that's going to happen. So bottom line, imo shooting the bank is an advantage for the shooter (because of the situation) But if the safety was a good safety and put the next shooter in trouble, then your argument would be better supported.)And finally, I believe IMO, that there is a price that must be eventually paid in a drawn out session, for challenging yourself when you don't have to, especially when there is a minimum reward (probably only one ball). ( That's funny, I think the opposite. If it's right for choosing a certain shot regardless of the challenge, then to me it will be rewarding for the player if he actually benefits from his choice. Even if it's only one ball. By the way one ball is to me...significant...)
( Beard
It actually all boils down to understanding your ability and reconizing the forecast when shooting certain shots, it's all about tradeoffs, and in this situation it's not an easy decision for most. But like I mentioned earlier, if the safety was a better safety then shooting the safety would be the better choice for just about anyone.

Dr. Bill
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  #105  
Old 09-26-2012, 09:18 PM
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Cowboy Dennis Cowboy Dennis is offline
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post

If I was bettin my own.....................or just trying to win,
I would be running to the table to baby the two ball in and try to freeze the cball to the rail. I don't pass up many chances at a lock-up free safe.On top of that..they'er going to have to come back with a not so easy safe,too.

Wouldn't matter to me what the score is either. JB
Hey Broomhead,

Just so you don't go gettin' a big head thinking you pulled one over on the Ole Cowboy here, let me reiterate; I don't believe a f@@king word you wrote here. You are full of it. I have highlighted the obvious BS in your post.

You can BS Cardone and Freddy all you want but I do not believe you. You are full of it and were making a joke but didn't want to admit it, that's O.K. though, you're still a good guy. Just don't ever think you can BS me.

Let me highlight the BS in your post for you again:

1. If I was bettin my own How the hell would you know what you would do if you were betting your own?

2. baby the two ball in Obvious sarcasm overlooked by Cardone & Freddy

3. I don't pass up many chances at a lock-up free safe You've played safe exactly one time in a Bankpool match that I recall, otherwise you shoot at anything that moves.

4. Wouldn't matter to me what the score is Yeah, right, the score wouldn't matter.

CatfishBreath, you can fool Cardone(all of) & Freddy(some of)the time but you can't fool me any of the time You are full of it and I don't believe a word you wrote about shooting the 2 in and playing safe. Oh yeah, I also didn't fall for your "I was tired and didn't know what I was doing when I banked the 1 straight-back" crap.

Try again some other time StillBreath.

RBL
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  #106  
Old 09-27-2012, 11:37 AM
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John Brumback John Brumback is offline
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Hey Broomhead,

Just so you don't go gettin' a big head thinking you pulled one over on the Ole Cowboy here, let me reiterate; I don't believe a f@@king word you wrote here. You are full of it. I have highlighted the obvious BS in your post.

You can BS Cardone and Freddy all you want but I do not believe you. You are full of it and were making a joke but didn't want to admit it, that's O.K. though, you're still a good guy. Just don't ever think you can BS me.

Let me highlight the BS in your post for you again:

1. If I was bettin my own How the hell would you know what you would do if you were betting your own?

2. baby the two ball in Obvious sarcasm overlooked by Cardone & Freddy

3. I don't pass up many chances at a lock-up free safe You've played safe exactly one time in a Bankpool match that I recall, otherwise you shoot at anything that moves.

4. Wouldn't matter to me what the score is Yeah, right, the score wouldn't matter.

CatfishBreath, you can fool Cardone(all of) & Freddy(some of)the time but you can't fool me any of the time You are full of it and I don't believe a word you wrote about shooting the 2 in and playing safe. Oh yeah, I also didn't fall for your "I was tired and didn't know what I was doing when I banked the 1 straight-back" crap.

Try again some other time StillBreath.

RBL
Hey! welcome back good ole buddy Your friend,JB

PS: no comment on the above acqusations,sp? I might have miss spelled that . but you know what I mean. I'll be here all day too.
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  #107  
Old 09-27-2012, 03:50 PM
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Cowboy Dennis Cowboy Dennis is offline
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Hey! welcome back good ole buddy Your friend,JB

PS: no comment on the above acqusations,sp? I might have miss spelled that . but you know what I mean. I'll be here all day too.
No comment??? You been busy bushwhacking today? You have no comment because you know that I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you are full of it.

You played a prank and got in over your head (not difficult) and now want to pretend nothing happened. You fooled Cardone (not tough) and Freddy (more difficult although he wasn't completely taken in) but you didn't fool me.

P.S. Learn to use "spellcheck" you slack-jawed yokel.

RBL
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  #108  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:53 PM
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SJDinPHX SJDinPHX is offline
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Default Attention all Beginner Bank Pool Players...!!!

Just a casual observation, from someone trying to learn the intricasies of bank pool. This is one of the best threads I have ever run across..This 'once in a lifetme" thread, consists of four of the worlds best banker's, writing a hundred or so, very lengthy posts, exchanging their exciting, and diverse viewpoints..on only TWO options...Simply amazing stuff !..This is absolutely priceless knowledge, and cannot be found on ANY other pool forum !

I am only on page 2 and, I am just spelzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, sorry, spellbound..I can hardly wait until Mr. Cowboy puts up another WEI table, with maybe THREE or more options, for our experts to discuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzshnux-snkzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




Excuse me, must have nodded off there...Will update after I have read the ENTIRE thread. (est. sometime before Christmas)

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 09-28-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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  #109  
Old 09-27-2012, 11:01 PM
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oldspurguy oldspurguy is offline
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Originally Posted by fred bentivegna View Post
It is the only reasonable shot. However, you do not need to complicate the matter with draw. Just roll the 2 ball in and the cue ball will be on the rail and your oppo will have a very difficult time not leaving you a shot. Players that continue to look for these opportunities will continue to win at bank pool.

Beard
I like this shot, it's the first shot I thought of when I saw the layout. And very easy to execute.
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