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  #21  
Old 03-07-2012, 11:16 AM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by fred bentivegna View Post
....Wuz dat he wood draw da 2 ball back betweene da 7 'n 8 ball. Witch he did.

He did ditnt he?

Beard
Dat's not da point. The original question for the thread is 'what ball would you shoot' I answered that question by explaining the way I evaluate situations, in terms of percentages. Which by the way is the correct way to make 99% of all decisions playing just about any game. Except poker. Then Larry asked what number ...in a rating system... would you put on the difficulty of the 2 ball bank ranging from 1 to 10, 1 being the easiest and 10 being the most difficult. I answered that question in post #13, which I suggest you read.

My main purpose on this site is to first, teach players to play better pool by giving them an understanding of the importance of key factors in the decision making process. Whether the player at the table (in the illustrations) shoots my choice, or another choice, is irrelevant, and not what the reader should be focused on. Yes, there are certain players that demand respect when at the table, and their shot choice should be strongly considered, but in no way should their choice be the only consideration for us to go off of, to implement into our game. If that were the case we wouldn't need to have these debates, in difference of opinion, would we? My second purpose on this site is to relax and enjoy myself, as I pass time listening to all the crazy humor, from the usual suspects, period.

DeMarco shot the bank because he has the skills to make the bank as often, or more often than needed in this situation, period. You by your own admittance said that you would have a problem shooting anything other than the 7 ball. Which I respect. Cowboy said "any bank pool player worth his salt would shoot this everytime in this situation" Which I feel apply's to only good players, but what about the players that are undecided? I said that I would have a problem not to shoot the 7 ball. Does that mean that i'm shooting the wrong shot? Absolutely not. One of the most important things that a player of any game should know, and understand is his capabilities, in terms of percentages Without that understanding you will be floundering endlessly, and we all know what it feels like to be floundering. That's why I teach pool by the percentages, or at least that's one of my most important factors. Knowing what shot is right for you.

I salute you for calling the shot, and how he would play it, Master. But how about explaining to us ...the next time...why we should or shouldn't, and what are the necessities needed to choose an option, or options, ok FRED.

Dr. Bill

Last edited by wincardona; 03-07-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2012, 02:33 PM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
Dat's not da point. The original question for the thread is 'what ball would you shoot' I answered that question by explaining the way I evaluate situations, in terms of percentages. Which by the way is the correct way to make 99% of all decisions playing just about any game. Except poker. Then Larry asked what number ...in a rating system... would you put on the difficulty of the 2 ball bank ranging from 1 to 10, 1 being the easiest and 10 being the most difficult. I answered that question in post #13, which I suggest you read.

My main purpose on this site is to first, teach players to play better pool by giving them an understanding of the importance of key factors in the decision making process. Whether the player at the table (in the illustrations) shoots my choice, or another choice, is irrelevant, and not what the reader should be focused on. Yes, there are certain players that demand respect when at the table, and their shot choice should be strongly considered, but in no way should their choice be the only consideration for us to go off of, to implement into our game. If that were the case we wouldn't need to have these debates, in difference of opinion, would we? My second purpose on this site is to relax and enjoy myself, as I pass time listening to all the crazy humor, from the usual suspects, period.

DeMarco shot the bank because he has the skills to make the bank as often, or more often than needed in this situation, period. You by your own admittance said that you would have a problem shooting anything other than the 7 ball. Which I respect. Cowboy said "any bank pool player worth his salt would shoot this everytime in this situation" Which I feel apply's to only good players, but what about the players that are undecided? I said that I would have a problem not to shoot the 7 ball. Does that mean that i'm shooting the wrong shot? Absolutely not. One of the most important things that a player of any game should know, and understand is his capabilities, in terms of percentages Without that understanding you will be floundering endlessly, and we all know what it feels like to be floundering. That's why I teach pool by the percentages, or at least that's one of my most important factors. Knowing what shot is right for you.

I salute you for calling the shot, and how he would play it, Master. But how about explaining to us ...the next time...why we should or shouldn't, and what are the necessities needed to choose an option, or options, ok FRED.

Dr. Bill

I said the main reason to shoot the 2 ball is because he needs 3 and there are 3 out there, and the simplest way to get all 3 is to shoot the 2 ball. More important, Scott needs 4 but there are only 3 out there. I went into a whole treatise about that.
If there were 4 balls in play, unless I was in dead punch, I might nit and shoot the 7, for two reasons. 1. It is a little easier to make than the 2. 2. If I shoot the 7 pocket speed and miss, I will probably hang it up and take it out of play, reducing the amount of balls Scott can get that inning to 3. Not enough for him to get out.

M Beard

When I give an opinion on a shot I usually like to base it on any ham n egger being able to handle it. The only other consideration I consider is whether I am dogging it or not. I will tone down my shot choice if I aint got all my tools. The bet does not enter into my consideration. I usually approach every shot situation as if it was life or death. I figure you cant go wrong with that approach.
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2012, 03:22 PM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by fred bentivegna View Post
I said the main reason to shoot the 2 ball is because he needs 3 and there are 3 out there, and the simplest way to get all 3 is to shoot the 2 ball. More important, Scott needs 4 but there are only 3 out there. I went into a whole treatise about that.
If there were 4 balls in play, unless I was in dead punch, I might nit and shoot the 7, for two reasons. 1. It is a little easier to make than the 2. 2. If I shoot the 7 pocket speed and miss, I will probably hang it up and take it out of play, reducing the amount of balls Scott can get that inning to 3. Not enough for him to get out.

M Beard

When I give an opinion on a shot I usually like to base it on any ham n egger being able to handle it. The only other consideration I consider is whether I am dogging it or not. I will tone down my shot choice if I aint got all my tools. The bet does not enter into my consideration. I usually approach every shot situation as if it was life or death. I figure you cant go wrong with that approach.
Finally making a little sense, a little.

Dr. Bill
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2012, 07:56 PM
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John Brumback John Brumback is offline
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
It's DeMarco's shot and he has a decision to make. Which ball would you shoot?

Attachment 5563

Attachment 5564
Up 10 or down 10,I aint passin up that duck brown 7ball cross corner.I'm giving the 7ball 95% and the 2ball 70%.I don't worry much about shape specially when I'm leading.John B.
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  #25  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:44 PM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Up 10 or down 10,I aint passin up that duck brown 7ball cross corner.I'm giving the 7ball 95% and the 2ball 70%.I don't worry much about shape specially when I'm leading.John B.
You have brought forth a very note worthy point, and that is the lead in bank pool is not to be disrespected. Increasing your lead from this position is worth more than many realize, it not only puts you in a better position score wise but it also sends a message to your opponent that your not giving anything away (bird in the hand) by playing higher percentage shots. Bank pool is more of a grinding game than one pocket, so whenever you have a "duck bank" with the lead, it's hard to turn down.

Dr. Bill
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  #26  
Old 03-13-2012, 03:24 PM
ChrisBanks ChrisBanks is offline
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The way I see the balls, DeMarco can easily shoot the 2-ball first without worrying what Scott will do next.

If DeMarco misses the 2-ball, Scott will have an easy 8-ball and 7-ball, but that only gives him 3. And there's no guarantee where the 2-ball will end up, and none of the other balls are lying easy.

So I think DeMarco can shoot the 2-ball with very little pressure. Scott is very unlikely to run out if DeMarco misses, and he may not even get to 4.
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  #27  
Old 03-13-2012, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Brumback
Up 10 or down 10,I aint passin up that duck brown 7ball cross corner.I'm giving the 7ball 95% and the 2ball 70%.I don't worry much about shape specially when I'm leading.John B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona
You have brought forth a very note worthy point, and that is the lead in bank pool is not to be disrespected. Increasing your lead from this position is worth more than many realize, it not only puts you in a better position score wise but it also sends a message to your opponent that your not giving anything away (bird in the hand) by playing higher percentage shots. Bank pool is more of a grinding game than one pocket, so whenever you have a "duck bank" with the lead, it's hard to turn down.

Dr. Bill
Bill,

You & catfishbreath both make good points that I would apply more to a full-rack gambling game than a tourney match. In this situation DeMarco had a chance to win the game & the match. If he made the 7 and then missed a tougher shot he's playing a guy who could run 4 and win. Those things must be balanced against each other in a short-race short-rack bank game.

I would still bank the 2 cross-side, exactly as he hit it, firm & with draw. That shot is the nuts for a bankpool player who needs three from there. Many times in these short-race matches a guy may do what you suggest and lock up the duck and then end up losing because the other guy shoots & makes "balls he shouldn't have shot" but only did because it's a short race or because he needs so many.

A month or two ago catfishbreath was talking about shooting wide-open in these short-race matches as the best way to win now he's backpedaling a little

P.S. One example of a guy shooting the wrong shots and winning anyway is the Piggy/Truman match. Piggy had a 2 games to 0 lead in that match and it still went 5 games (I don't remember who won). When a player gets a lead in a bankpool match, quite often his opponent starts shooting at everything and at this level all he needs to do is make one ball to give him a chance to run out. Guys are very dangerous in these short-race matches when playing from behind just for that reason.

One other strange thing also happens in these short-rack games: A player may need 4 or 5 balls and then run 3 or 4 and when he's shooting his game ball he let's up on the stroke and shoots almost pocket speed and usually misses the ball. Playing from behind they throw all caution to the wind but as soon as they get even or ahead they freeze-up a little. It's a phenomena that I've seen so many times now that I expect it to happen.
Dennis
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2012, 04:30 PM
wincardona wincardona is offline
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
Bill,

You & catfishbreath both make good points that I would apply more to a full-rack gambling game than a tourney match. In this situation DeMarco had a chance to win the game & the match. If he made the 7 and then missed a tougher shot he's playing a guy who could run 4 and win. Those things must be balanced against each other in a short-race short-rack bank game.

I would still bank the 2 cross-side, exactly as he hit it, firm & with draw. That shot is the nuts for a bankpool player who needs three from there. Many times in these short-race matches a guy may do what you suggest and lock up the duck and then end up losing because the other guy shoots & makes "balls he shouldn't have shot" but only did because it's a short race or because he needs so many.

A month or two ago catfishbreath was talking about shooting wide-open in these short-race matches as the best way to win now he's backpedaling a little

P.S. One example of a guy shooting the wrong shots and winning anyway is the Piggy/Truman match. Piggy had a 2 games to 0 lead in that match and it still went 5 games (I don't remember who won). When a player gets a lead in a bankpool match, quite often his opponent starts shooting at everything and at this level all he needs to do is make one ball to give him a chance to run out. Guys are very dangerous in these short-race matches when playing from behind just for that reason.

One other strange thing also happens in these short-rack games: A player may need 4 or 5 balls and then run 3 or 4 and when he's shooting his game ball he let's up on the stroke and shoots almost pocket speed and usually misses the ball. Playing from behind they throw all caution to the wind but as soon as they get even or ahead they freeze-up a little. It's a phenomena that I've seen so many times now that I expect it to happen.
Dennis
I agree with some of what you say, the quality of your opponent could persuade me to go for the "home run bank", as opposed to the "duck bank" but the length of the game or match, to me holds much less importance to what you say then the quality of your opponent. For instance, if I were playing a lesser player I would put more importance on lengthening my lead, than I would on choosing the shot that I could bury him with. That apply's to the over kill factor. You win as much whether you win by one ball or four balls, but the "duck shot" playing a lesser player with the lead insures your win, more than the "home run" bank does.

As far as the length of the game or the race, i'm going to try to shoot the shot that gives me the best chance to win the game Neither the length of the race, nor the score of the race, should influence you to not shoot the best shot to win the game your playing.

There has always been a controversy on choosing one shot as opposed to another shot in a game, based off the score of the race. Which is totally wrong
The score of the race should never influence you to shoot any shot other than the best shot available to win the game with. Always forget about the score of the race, and concentrate on the game you're playing and shoot the shot that gives you the best chance of winning the game. That will always give you the best chance of winning the race, regardless of the score.

Dr. Bill

Last edited by wincardona; 03-13-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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  #29  
Old 03-13-2012, 04:59 PM
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Cowboy Dennis Cowboy Dennis is offline
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Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
I agree with some of what you say, the quality of your opponent could persuade me to go for the "home run bank", as opposed to the "duck bank" but the length of the game or match, to me holds less importance to what you say then the quality of your opponent. For instance, if I were playing a lesser player I would put more importance on lengthening my lead, than I would on choosing the shot that I could bury him with. That apply's to the over kill factor. You win as much whether you win by one ball or four balls, but the "duck shot" playing a lesser player with the lead insures your win, more than the "home run" bank does.

As far as the length of the game or the race, i'm going to try to shoot the shot that gives me the best chance to win the game Neither the length of the race, nor the score of the race, should influence you to not shoot the best shot to win the game your playing.

Dr. Bill
Bill,

I have 32 AccuStats Bankpool matches and the "common sense" approach that would be normal in a gambling game or a full-rack game doesn't apply most of the time. The 7 ball that you & catfishbreath breath like is the logical, common-sense thing to do but not in a short-race short-rack tournament match. It's not so much what you do as what the opponent will do given any chance at all.

Guys playing from behind shoot at white flags and often beat the "better" player or the player who "did the right thing". It's odd but it must be considered in the equation and that is your long suit, right?

I'll put up a couple bankpool situations in the next two days (don't draw any inferences just because of the layouts either, I'm tricky).

Bear in mind that I can always post layouts to prove a point but I will not do that. The facts are that quite often in these tourney matches guys shoot the clearly "wrong" shot and win. Don't forget that a lot of these guys are 9-Ball players and are just taking a shot at the banks division ala Scot Frost. They only know how to shoot, not how to move.

Dennis
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by wincardona View Post
There has always been a controversy on choosing one shot as opposed to another shot in a game, based off the score of the race. Which is totally wrong
The score of the race should never influence you to shoot any shot other than the best shot available to win the game with. Always forget about the score of the race, and concentrate on the game you're playing and shoot the shot that gives you the best chance of winning the game. That will always give you the best chance of winning the race, regardless of the score.

Dr. Bill
I have a DVD where you and Freddy argued this point during the commentary. I don't completely agree with you in every situation and I don't mean stalling or anything.

Dennis
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