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  #11  
Old 03-07-2012, 09:44 PM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Originally Posted by androd View Post
As I said above IMO X will turn the most. It looks like a true 1/2 ball hit. Y will turn also, but you''l get more collision English with X.
Rod.
P.S. Tyler, I'm not trying to argue about your results at all. I was only giving my opinion ( however feeble it may be)
Anrod, I am not able to maybe line up the letters and diagram to a one half ball hit exactly, but it was a half ball hit on the table. Maybe this is why my diagram is so unclear. It is hard to line those letter as if they were balls, ha.

Whatever the case or whatever the diagram looks like, the true getting it over the most was 1/2 ball hits when I did it, unless I screwed something up (very possible).

Were you saying that you feel the 1/2 ball will get over more than others cut angles as well? Instead of using the diagram, I think it is better to just discuss in words
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2012, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
Anrod, I am not able to maybe line up the letters and diagram to a one half ball hit exactly, but it was a half ball hit on the table. Maybe this is why my diagram is so unclear. It is hard to line those letter as if they were balls, ha.

Whatever the case or whatever the diagram looks like, the true getting it over the most was 1/2 ball hits when I did it, unless I screwed something up (very possible).

Were you saying that you feel the 1/2 ball will get over more than others cut angles as well? Instead of using the diagram, I think it is better to just discuss in words
Yes I think the 1/2 ball hit will turn the most. Inside English works against the shot as it tends to make you cut the OB more. I mentioned before, striking down on the CB helps me turn the OB better than using English.
Rod.
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:25 AM
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Those are some great experiments.. You can read and study all you want but until you do experiments like this, for yourself, you really can't understand how balls react.

I'm also one that loves to experiment with shots to see the limits. I got this idea after a lesson with John Brumback. Since my lesson with him, my banks game has soared to a whole different dimension.

I still have a LONG ways to go but I have a much better understanding of how the game should be played..
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  #14  
Old 03-09-2012, 11:28 AM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Originally Posted by mojoe View Post
Those are some great experiments.. You can read and study all you want but until you do experiments like this, for yourself, you really can't understand how balls react.

I'm also one that loves to experiment with shots to see the limits. I got this idea after a lesson with John Brumback. Since my lesson with him, my banks game has soared to a whole different dimension.

I still have a LONG ways to go but I have a much better understanding of how the game should be played..
John is an amazing guy, i'd love to get a lesson one day. He is more than generous around here dropping little pieces of advice -- very gracious of him, and very appreciated.

As you mentioned, my bank game has gone up a bunch too as I learned some of this stuff. Thanks for the comments!
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  #15  
Old 03-09-2012, 02:47 PM
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tyler try your experiment with the object ball closer to the rail
see if the inside english turns the ball more
let us know the results
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
Thanks for the posts all.

Larry, I have Beards book, and the results I got (however feeble they are), contrasted with what Beard said in his book, namely inside english you could spin the ball over more. On pages 33 & 35... the results I got indicated half ball hits put more (Androd says about 1/4 ball hits put more, which is what freddy says in his book), and that center ball puts more, not inside as indicated in the book. I posted because my results seemed so different.... I did double check it, but who knows, maybe I did something wrong. Yet, John mentioned something in the other thread about center actually being the one with the most torque ability (this mad sense with my results). So, maybe I can try to set it up again and see if Anrod and Freddy got me.... I probably just overlooked something.... it really did seem that ob was only going over far with 1/2 ball and center ball hit though.

When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

Last edited by Dudley; 03-09-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-09-2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dudley View Post
When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.
edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud
john B mentions this on many shots
he shows several shots with the comment
you will never make this shot if you put too much english on it
{paraphrased)
john correct me if ive misspoken its been awhile since i watched your dvd but this thread will get me to re - read freddies books and watch your dvd again and take better notes this time
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  #18  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:57 PM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudley View Post
When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud
I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.

Last edited by tylerdurden; 03-09-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.
Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:05 AM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudley View Post
Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud
Right, I think one good way to put it is.... for max throw on full hits spin needs to be used to get max english on the ob (john mentioned when the cb stops dead is the most transfer he sees), yet on half ball hits i think the cling using center is the best way to get the max spin on the ob.
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