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Old 06-18-2012, 11:39 AM
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Default shooting hard,my reason

I get this question alot..(insert whiny voice)why do good bank players hit their shots so hard? The reason most good bank players do including me is that is gives you the best chance at making the pocket play as big and easy as possiable.There is not many banks that you can hit soft and still get my secret trick of making the pocket play easy and or big.Most of the best ever really didn't and don't know why they shoot banks hard.I have asked them and they couldn't really tell me,but I figuerd it out on my own.Normally when you shoot easy your not coming from the best angle into the pocket,therefore your not going into the better angle like I will be.The difference can be like 2 or 3 inches and I prove it all the time.Example,if your crossing a ball cross side and you shoot easy your going into the pocket at bad angle (smaller pocket).If I shoot the same shot,I'm going to take the oball farther down table and fire it and hold it and my pocket is going to be bigger than yours.It's simple.Would you rather shoot at a small hole or a big one?

Dang it, I've been saving this one for along time.It's really like I've been cheatin (pun intened) sort of.Oh well it's right there on my dvd.Your welcome. John B.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
I get this question alot..(insert whiny voice)why do good bank players hit their shots so hard? The reason most good bank players do including me is that is gives you the best chance at making the pocket play as big and easy as possiable.There is not many banks that you can hit soft and still get my secret trick of making the pocket play easy and or big.Most of the best ever really didn't and don't know why they shoot banks hard.I have asked them and they couldn't really tell me,but I figuerd it out on my own.Normally when you shoot easy your not coming from the best angle into the pocket,therefore your not going into the better angle like I will be.The difference can be like 2 or 3 inches and I prove it all the time.Example,if your crossing a ball cross side and you shoot easy your going into the pocket at bad angle (smaller pocket).If I shoot the same shot,I'm going to take the oball farther down table and fire it and hold it and my pocket is going to be bigger than yours.It's simple.Would you rather shoot at a small hole or a big one?

Dang it, I've been saving this one for along time.It's really like I've been cheatin (pun intened) sort of.Oh well it's right there on my dvd.Your welcome. John B.
Hey John,

After watching your video that goes into detail about this it has totally changed my view on shooting bank shots. I really believe you let out some well kept secrets with the creation of the dvd.

As primarily a 9baller and 1 hole player I've always used english and speed for very different reasons (some of them based on wrong assumptions ) when shooting a bank but with the techniques you outline I am shooting banks that I need to make with a higher success rate.

Dudley
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:08 AM
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John, that sounds like great advice, who doesn't want to make the pocket bigger. I haven't been at a table lately, but have been wanting to try that shot you said you flatten out with english in the crossover cross side thread. Same principle I guess.

I have a question for you... along with the reason you stated (which I had never thought of until you mentioned it before), I have often thought that people shoot banks hard because little variance in your stroke (catching a little more or less english than intended) can be cancelled out with a hard stroke in a way. There is almost a buffer there -- a hard speed will put about the same amount of english on an ob with a little or a lot of spin, but a soft stroke it will differ a lot more. Do you feel you shoot hard for this reason as well, or is it mostly because of the reason you mentioned?

I also have one more for you. I have been really wanting to hit many of my banks softer lately, but I notice all the best guys don't do that. I got a lot better for a while there, no I feel im going backwards. Have you played guys that are accurate at a world class level, and their cinch speed is a lot slower on the average bank, or does that player just not exist? Ok, too many questions In any case, I will experiment with your hard shortening speeds, but I also wanted to know how you felt about the accuracy of banking softly in general.

Last edited by tylerdurden; 06-19-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
John, that sounds like great advice, who doesn't want to make the pocket bigger. I haven't been at a table lately, but have been wanting to try that shot you said you flatten out with english in the crossover cross side thread. Same principle I guess.

I have a question for you... along with the reason you stated (which I had never thought of until you mentioned it before), I have often thought that people shoot banks hard because little variance in your stroke (catching a little more or less english than intended) can be cancelled out with a hard stroke in a way. There is almost a buffer there -- a hard speed will put about the same amount of english on an ob with a little or a lot of spin, but a soft stroke it will differ a lot more. Do you feel you shoot hard for this reason as well, or is it mostly because of the reason you mentioned?

I also have one more for you. I have been really wanting to hit many of my banks softer lately, but I notice all the best guys don't do that. I got a lot better for a while there, no I feel im going backwards. Have you played guys that are accurate at a world class level, and their cinch speed is a lot slower on the average bank, or does that player just not exist? Ok, too many questions In any case, I will experiment with your hard shortening speeds, but I also wanted to know how you felt about the accuracy of banking softly in general.
TD,
1st,yes same principle.There's a video of me practicing on youtube and i shoot that same cross side a few times,check it out maybe.
2nd? I think your a liitle right but mostly wrong.The speed can put a buffer on the shot maybe but I don't think it has anything at all to do with your stroke.You should be able to stroke just as good easy as you can hard.Maybe better,I'd have to think about that one.
3rd.Yes I have played and seen players that were world class accurate shooting easy,just not world class bank pool players.Goes back to why I said top bank players shoot firm or hard so they can get the pocket to open up.If your shooting banks easy your playing into a smallish pocket.Onemore thing,you can't get them to bend either when shooting easy and that's another trick to high level bankpool.I have about 4 things I do to make the pocket play eaiser and bigger and most all of them require some speed on the shot.I practice alot shooting easy and It makes me see how hard it becomes,too compared to firing em. Hope that helps bud.Now go practice
John B.
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Old 06-19-2012, 02:56 PM
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john since in 1p more banks are shot softer do you feel less comfortable shooting those the "wrong/harder" way???.........
seriously since you dont practice them shot this way as much (i assume)
do you have to practice more "pocket speed" banks before a 1p tourney to find the touch??
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:47 AM
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TD,
1st,yes same principle.There's a video of me practicing on youtube and i shoot that same cross side a few times,check it out maybe.
2nd? I think your a liitle right but mostly wrong.The speed can put a buffer on the shot maybe but I don't think it has anything at all to do with your stroke.You should be able to stroke just as good easy as you can hard.Maybe better,I'd have to think about that one.
3rd.Yes I have played and seen players that were world class accurate shooting easy,just not world class bank pool players.Goes back to why I said top bank players shoot firm or hard so they can get the pocket to open up.If your shooting banks easy your playing into a smallish pocket.Onemore thing,you can't get them to bend either when shooting easy and that's another trick to high level bankpool.I have about 4 things I do to make the pocket play eaiser and bigger and most all of them require some speed on the shot.I practice alot shooting easy and It makes me see how hard it becomes,too compared to firing em. Hope that helps bud.Now go practice
John B.
I really appreciate the input. If you are going to try and bank with the best of them, speed is necessary.... it is hard not to agree. I will definitely practice I feel like I hit a plateau, or even dropped some, and I look forward to trying some of the things discussed here.

Here is the video of John banking of anybody is interested (is this the one you were thinking of?). I have no sound at work so i'll have to watch it better when home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79smr2qN1ns
It actually makes me mad watching that I mean I cant believe your percentage on those, really i mean wow, I have a long way to go.

Regards. Tyler.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:22 AM
P00lh0li0 P00lh0li0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
I get this question alot..(insert whiny voice)why do good bank players hit their shots so hard? The reason most good bank players do including me is that is gives you the best chance at making the pocket play as big and easy as possiable.There is not many banks that you can hit soft and still get my secret trick of making the pocket play easy and or big.Most of the best ever really didn't and don't know why they shoot banks hard.I have asked them and they couldn't really tell me,but I figuerd it out on my own.Normally when you shoot easy your not coming from the best angle into the pocket,therefore your not going into the better angle like I will be.The difference can be like 2 or 3 inches and I prove it all the time.Example,if your crossing a ball cross side and you shoot easy your going into the pocket at bad angle (smaller pocket).If I shoot the same shot,I'm going to take the oball farther down table and fire it and hold it and my pocket is going to be bigger than yours.It's simple.Would you rather shoot at a small hole or a big one?

Dang it, I've been saving this one for along time.It's really like I've been cheatin (pun intened) sort of.Oh well it's right there on my dvd.Your welcome. John B.

I never thought to shoot hard in bank pool till I got my first bank tape of you playing Luat. Then I got some more of you and of Truman and noticed both you guys usually shot hard. When I started doing it, I noticed I could pocket more balls.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:42 PM
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I have always said that the top bankers usually hit their shots very hard. I say usually, because to play your best, in my opinion, you had better know how to roll one in.
In my bank DVDs I outline a whole series of banks that I recommend be blasted into the pocket. I say that the simplest advice I can give on those shots is to make sure they are hit full speed.
I once explained that to Marco Marques after he got swamped by Piggy Banks Rogers playing bumps. I critiqued the match and told Marco that once Piggy saw him rolling in, or bumping certain shots with medium speed, Piggy knew he had his man. Real bank players expect their oppo to hit certain shots with top speed, and if their oppo chooses otherwise, the real banker's heart gets big.

Now after saying all that, let me add this: I have robbed all bankers that shot every shot 100 mph. Tony Banks Coleman comes immediately to mind. He has subsequently, perhaps as a result of some of those thumpings he received from me throughout the years -- sessions where he shot real good and still got broke -- finally decided to play a more balanced game. --- and with good results. He still plays good -- (I cant beat him anymore).

Hereby I will explain the down side of shooting a bank hard. Four very bad things can happen if you shoot a bank hard: 1., The ball might spit out and you miss. 2., If you miss hitting with speed, your cue ball is more than likely not going to end up on or near a cushion. 3., If you miss hitting with speed, the object ball, more than likely, will also not end up on or near a cushion. (A place where bank pocket options are limited) The farther off the rail the object ball is the more bank options that are available. 4., It is also unlikely that the hard hit bank will hang up somewhere and block a pocket.

If I roll one in, there is a good chance I can leave the rock close to a rail. The ball is never going to spit out, and it might even drizzle in. There is an excellent chance that if I miss, the object ball will either stop close to a cushion or maybe even hang up and block the pocket. A blocked pocket removes a minimum of 16% of your opponents advantages. (6 pockets minus 1 = 16%) Plus if I make it, the pocket will be available -- only to me.

Beard
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:23 PM
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It would be instructive to define the terms. What speed does "firm" describe, and what speed is described by "hard"?

In John's YouTube video, the cross corner speed seems to me to be "firm" or perhaps "extra firm". Whereas I've seen Truman drill some shots that practically jump up from the pocket iron before they drop.

How would you describe the speed of John's YouTube banks?

Doc
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:53 AM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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It would be instructive to define the terms. What speed does "firm" describe, and what speed is described by "hard"?

In John's YouTube video, the cross corner speed seems to me to be "firm" or perhaps "extra firm". Whereas I've seen Truman drill some shots that practically jump up from the pocket iron before they drop.

How would you describe the speed of John's YouTube banks?

Doc
I go over this point very comprehensively in my bank DVDs, Doc. I do believe you had my first one didnt you?

Beard
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