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  #21  
Old 10-12-2014, 03:21 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
I think, if presented to 100 "B" players or better who are NOT familiar with this set up, 95% or better would instinctively feel the shot requires favoring "inside"! It's just, "common sense" that the inside can ONLY help this shot, especially if the shot is hit a little LESS than half-ball!
I agree it makes common sense - but common sense is often wrong. Inside can make this bank go wrong either way (too short or too long), depending on other factors like:
- amount of sidespin
- cut angle
- shot speed
- draw or follow on the CB
- equipment slipperiness

pj
chgo
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I agree it makes common sense - but common sense is often wrong. Inside can make this bank go wrong either way (too short or too long), depending on other factors like:
- amount of sidespin
- cut angle
- shot speed
- draw or follow on the CB
- equipment slipperiness

pj
chgo
Patty; Id like YOU, to set up the shot and video the results, and show us how it's made with and without English. And explain how your contacting the CB and OB, speed, so called, "cut-angle." This would maybe alleviate some concerns my or anyone else has, that feels the shot needs a little help from Mr. Inside!
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2014, 04:24 PM
straightback straightback is offline
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If you employ a level and fluid stroke, you will be amazed how much collision-induced English you can put on the ball at this cut angle. It could be that this shot is so tough that it requires even more, but I doubt that it is required. I feel it is not helpful - for one, English transfer at the speed required to hit this shot is marginal. Second, the inside English decreases the accuracy of the hit. Third, while PJ and I seem to disagree, I feel that inside English transfer is but a fraction of what outside English is due to weight and rotational force.

I'm going to play in a bit. Maybe I can have my partner hold the phone while I blast a few of these. Honestly, this shot rarely comes up in bank pool, although easier iterations of it occur all the time.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2014, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by straightback View Post
If you employ a level and fluid stroke, you will be amazed how much collision-induced English you can put on the ball at this cut angle. It could be that this shot is so tough that it requires even more, but I doubt that it is required. I feel it is not helpful - for one, English transfer at the speed required to hit this shot is marginal. Second, the inside English decreases the accuracy of the hit. Third, while PJ and I seem to disagree, I feel that inside English transfer is but a fraction of what outside English is due to weight and rotational force.

I'm going to play in a bit. Maybe I can have my partner hold the phone while I blast a few of these. Honestly, this shot rarely comes up in bank pool, although easier iterations of it occur all the time.
This was NOT an "agree or disagree" thread, it was how to make the shot. I was shown the shot MANY years ago by Freddy, I only related how to make the shot as shown to me by a pretty good bank pool authority!

Maybe this shot doesn't come up often in a game, that wasn't the point. Just how TOP bankers and the scientific approach would proceed to make the shot. The are always many paddles for many assess, this shot seems to have it's number of paddles!

If you do try the shot, please try the setup as shown, thanks!
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:16 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
Patty; Id like YOU, to set up the shot and video the results, and show us how it's made with and without English. And explain how your contacting the CB and OB, speed, so called, "cut-angle." This would maybe alleviate some concerns my or anyone else has, that feels the shot needs a little help from Mr. Inside!
No video, but here are some pics I took just now of the shot as I tested it. To answer any questions of how I really hit the shot I set up a frozen combo with the 1 aimed so it would hit close to the 5, then shot the CB directly at the first combo ball (the 7) from its designated position (recreating the cut angle). The frozen combo means there can be little or no sidespin effect and absolutely no follow or draw.

Here's that setup, with lines drawn (black dotted and yellow solid) to show how the combo is aimed and where it actually hits the rail - the difference is a measure of how much throw is created by this (nearly half-ball) hit, which is also a direct measure of how much sidespin is put on the 1 ball by the collision.

When aimed right this shot made every time on the table shown - but on the table behind it (the legs you can see at the top of the pic), which I vacuum and wipe down daily, it wouldn't go. These are side-by-side tables of the same make and model that were recovered at the same time, so the only major difference is cleanliness.

Attachment 55764
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Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-12-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:26 PM
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Here's another pic showing more clearly how the combo is aimed:

Attachment 56535
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:32 PM
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...and a third one showing where the balls typically ended up after making the bank (to indicate how hard it was hit):

Attachment 57341
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Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-12-2014 at 07:43 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:35 PM
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mr3cushion mr3cushion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
No video, but here are some pics I took just now of the shot as I tested it. To answer any questions of how I really hit the shot I set up a frozen combo with the 1 aimed so it would hit close to the 5, then shot the CB directly at the first combo ball (the 7) from its designated position (recreating the cut angle). The frozen combo means there can be little or no sidespin effect and absolutely no follow or draw.

Here's that setup, with lines drawn (black dotted and yellow solid) to show how the combo is aimed and where it actually hits the rail - the difference is a measure of how much throw is created by this (nearly half-ball) hit, which is also a direct measure of how much sidespin is put on the 1 ball by the collision.

When aimed right this shot made every time on the table shown - but on the table behind it (the legs you can see at the top of the pic), which I vacuum and wipe down daily, it wouldn't go. These are side-by-side tables of the same make and model that were recovered at the same time, so the only major difference is cleanliness.

Attachment 55764
I'm sorry, all this smoke n mirrors, is enough! I want to see YOU make the shot, period! Just like you did with the Bob Jewitt across corner bank with the added OB to the mix, can't you guys hit a OB 12" away accurately! You need another ball to help you TRY to prove your point, have YOU forgotten, this game is played by HUMANS! To me, this is an unacceptable answer!

If YOU can take a picture, someone in the entire pool room can take a video of YOU shooting the shot!
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:44 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr3cushion View Post
I'm sorry, all this smoke n mirrors, is enough! I want to see YOU make the shot, period! Just like you did with the Bob Jewitt across corner bank with the added OB to the mix, can't you guys hit a OB 12" away accurately! You need another ball to help you TRY to prove your point, have YOU forgotten, this game is played by HUMANS! To me, this is an unacceptable answer!

If YOU can take a picture, someone in the entire pool room can take a video of YOU shooting the shot!
Maybe somebody else can explain to you why doing it this way is a more clear demonstration of the dynamics, Bill - you're obviously not prepared to believe me.

pj
chgo
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:58 PM
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Maybe somebody else can explain to you why doing it this way is a more clear demonstration of the dynamics, Bill - you're obviously not prepared to believe me.

pj
chgo
Can YOU make the shot or NOT? If YOU can't then let some one else explain and show how the shot is made by an actual human, without tricks!

This is what I mean by "practical" explanations and demonstrations! when YOU talk about the scientific approach to the shot, YOU should be able to demonstrate and explain by reproducing the same shot for all to see!

If you don't have the ability to do so, then let someone else shoot the shot on video thru YOU'RE direction!

When I produced my book/DVD, I just didn't want the reader to take my written word for what I proposed in playing position for certain positions on the table. I knew that with a DVD I would be able to demonstrate by DOING to the viewer what I had written is doable, along with verbal explanation!
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