Round Robin Format / MOT

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Sep 30, 2018

Members, I decided to start a thread for those interested in participating in developing a "suggestive" Round Robin (RR) Format for the Members Only Annual Tournament!
This is not a thread to pose negative comments going against having a RR format. For those comments would be properly held until after a completed format package can be presented. This is very important so that bickering & negativity, does not enter in and effect the positive progress of ideas! Thank you, for the respect shown to members that wish to participate.

I feel that those proponents of RR will never have a voice unless they collectively come together and develop it. I further believe it can be developed without a tournament trial run, for there are known factors to work with. This is what I have developed so far.
3 days of play;
Fri. 10am-1 practice/players draw/players meeting/Calcutta. 1:00 play starts, last game starts @ 10pm. Playing hrs. 12
-----------
Sat. 10am-1am/playing time 15hrs. -------Sun. the same / 15 hrs.
------
Total hrs. playing time 42 hrs. x 16 tables = 672 hrs. x 30 min.? / game =1344 games! This is only optimum usage estimate.
Note; I believe Steve or others have kept track of DCC games and know an avg. time a game takes. Plus games are delayed, but with a more accurate time / game we then can predict how many games can be played in time allotted over 3 days. It might be 1200/1250 games.
-------
RR Format;
32 players divided into groups of 8 playing on 4 tables and playing each player one game is 56 games @ 30min.?/game = 28hrs of play time / divided by 4 tables = 7hrs. of play time, Playing 2 games ea. =14 hrs. This is of course optimum playing time, it will take longer.
----
Now, the 7hr format may allow time to do another "Loser Side" 7 hr. format which would create the double elimination format of 16 players being eliminated. Each player would of played 14 different players / one game.
The 14 hr format would constitute the double elimination format. each player would of course have played 7 different players /2 games.
Both Formats would run into the afternoon of Saturday, with 16 tables available with 16 winner side and 1 loss players remaining. This opens up 8 tables for matching up.
---
Say the 2nd. rd. starts at 4pm. Sat. then we have used up fri. 12 hrs. plus Sat. 6hrs. = 18hrs. of the 42hrs. This leaves us 9 more hrs. on sat. and 15 hrs. on sun. = 24hrs. left to finish the tournament. I have not done any further developments.

This is what I have so far, to kick start this off! Whitey

jrhendy · Sep 30, 2018

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Members, I decided to start a thread for those interested in participating in developing a "suggestive" Round Robin (RR) Format for the Members Only Annual Tournament!
This is not a thread to pose negative comments going against having a RR format. For those comments would be properly held until after a completed format package can be presented. This is very important so that bickering & negativity, does not enter in and effect the positive progress of ideas! Thank you, for the respect shown to members that wish to participate.

I feel that those proponents of RR will never have a voice unless they collectively come together and develop it. I further believe it can be developed without a tournament trial run, for there are known factors to work with. This is what I have developed so far.
3 days of play;
Fri. 10am-1 practice/players draw/players meeting/Calcutta. 1:00 play starts, last game starts @ 10pm. Playing hrs. 12
-----------
Sat. 10am-1am/playing time 15hrs. -------Sun. the same / 15 hrs.
------
Total hrs. playing time 42 hrs. x 16 tables = 672 hrs. x 30 min.? / game =1344 games! This is only optimum usage estimate.
Note; I believe Steve or others have kept track of DCC games and know an avg. time a game takes. Plus games are delayed, but with a more accurate time / game we then can predict how many games can be played in time allotted over 3 days. It might be 1200/1250 games.
-------
RR Format;
32 players divided into groups of 8 playing on 4 tables and playing each player one game is 56 games @ 30min.?/game = 28hrs of play time / divided by 4 tables = 7hrs. of play time, Playing 2 games ea. =14 hrs. This is of course optimum playing time, it will take longer.
----
Now, the 7hr format may allow time to do another "Loser Side" 7 hr. format which would create the double elimination format of 16 players being eliminated. Each player would of played 14 different players / one game.
The 14 hr format would constitute the double elimination format. each player would of course have played 7 different players /2 games.
Both Formats would run into the afternoon of Saturday, with 16 tables available with 16 winner side and 1 loss players remaining. This opens up 8 tables for matching up.
---
Say the 2nd. rd. starts at 4pm. Sat. then we have used up fri. 12 hrs. plus Sat. 6hrs. = 18hrs. of the 42hrs. This leaves us 9 more hrs. on sat. and 15 hrs. on sun. = 24hrs. left to finish the tournament. I have not done any further developments.

This is what I have so far, to kick start this off! Whitey

I like it and think it is a benefit to the players who come knowing the probability of them going deep in the tournament is low. Everyone gets to play lots of one pocket and a bad draw after traveling a couple thousand miles does not have you sitting on the bench after the first two rounds. It also solves the debate about only going to two on the one loss side.

Mkbtank · Sep 30, 2018

Round Robin Format / MOT

I also love the round robin idea. FWIW.

LSJohn · Sep 30, 2018

I also like the idea, but rather than trying to figure it out for myself (ourselves) I'd suggest that we take the advice of the one person we know for sure has a good head on his shoulders and has experience with this format, and is an experienced tournament director.

Whatever way Cory thinks we should do it, I'm in favor of that.

catkins · Sep 30, 2018

I really like the idea of round robin just wondering with single games how big the break will be and if there is a way to make it less of a huge advantage when you only have on game to get an idea of your opponent and have to lag for every break.

Cory in dc · Sep 30, 2018

I just need someone who is better than me at searching the archives to find my old posts on this. I had brackets worked up and showed how RR brackets would feed into pre-seeded single elim bracket positions to minimize delays. It's on here somewhere.

There's no way you can average 30 minute a game. The biggest delay is that one long match can hold up two other matches that are waiting on the current players to finish.

My biggest speedboost idea is to have each RR matchup be just 2 games, 1 break each. Everyone gets the exact same number of breaks.

The main challenge is how to break ties (they only really matter if two tied players are on the cusp of the High/Low brackets). Games won is first, but with RR if two people have the same games won then they have the same games lost. Head to head is next, but using my speedboost, that could also be a 1-1 tie. The ideal next tiebreak is "fewest balls made against" but I'd need people to record each game score for that to work. We could give out slips of paper for that, but would people use them? I guess if Players A and B are tied and A didn't do good paperwork then B wins the tiebreak--that should make people pay attention. If that's a tie, then I'd propose three racks of full offense: break, ball in hand, run balls. Most balls made wins. Players could do this on two tables at the same time or to be 100% even and more exciting, on a single table with alternating breaks.

The other real acceleration comes from not having a double-elim bracket at all, which can really bog down when one part of the bracket gets behind.

lll · Sep 30, 2018

peter had one of his tournaments early on as a round robin format(only 16 players )
i played in that one'
although i happened to get my house pro and "miami randy" among my 3 matches
i got 3 matches and felt like i got my $100 entry fee worth...

peter
please comment on your thoughts on this format

youngstown · Sep 30, 2018

Round Robin Format / MOT

The one thing that I see that would be problematic is when one match takes a long time but the others are ready...so what do you do? Can you just continue the rotation and skip over that one person? Then anyone who skipped someone or was skipped can make up their matches at the end of the day/round/rotation?

Cory in dc · Sep 30, 2018

youngstownkid said:
The one thing that I see that would be problematic is when one match takes a long time but the others are ready...so what do you do? Can you just continue the rotation and skip over that one person? Then anyone who skipped someone or was skipped can make up their matches at the end of the day/round/rotation?

Same issue happens in DE. Your solution is the best one I know of.

With RR, you do just skip over and play whatever matches can be played--order doesn't matter. But eventually, it will happen that other matches are waiting on one to finish.

darmoose · Sep 30, 2018

I am interested in trying the Round Robin format also. It keeps people in the tournament longer and quarantes them more games.

The format I would recommend would be 32 players divided into 8 groups of four players. Everybody would play 4 games against each other player in their group. That would guarantee each player to get 12 games in the tournament.

On completion of the RR the top eight players (one from each group) would compete in a single elimination on Sunday, which would involve three rounds on Sunday.

If you only use one table per group it takes 6 rounds to complete the RR portion, so if you allow 3 hours per round, we would play 2 rounds (6 hours) on Friday and 4 rounds (12 hours on Saturday), and would only need 8 tables for the whole tournament. This also means that each player is only playing half that time or 3 hours on Friday and 6 hours on Saturday.

Obviously the single elimination portion would need only 4 tables on Sunday to get started.

Another interesting twist would be in how we select the players in each group. It could be random, or it could be seeded somehow, or it could be a situation where 8 captains are selected and they take turns selecting their group members (could be fun) especially if we introduced a pot bet ($$) as to which group will produce the winner.

Leaves plenty of time for action. Only needs 8 tables so more rooms could be considered. Naturally if we could get and use 16 tables for two days we could guarantee everybody more games easily.

Hope my math is correct, if not, it's the scotch.

P.S. Regarding the concern about some matches taking too long, if we could put into use an extra table or two when needed we could just go right around any long matches to keep everything moving along.

crabbcatjohn · Sep 30, 2018

darmoose said:
I am interested in trying the Round Robin format also. It keeps people in the tournament longer and quarantes them more games.

The format I would recommend would be 32 players divided into 8 groups of four players. Everybody would play 4 games against each other player in their group. That would guarantee each player to get 12 games in the tournament.

On completion of the RR the top eight players (one from each group) would compete in a single elimination on Sunday, which would involve three rounds on Sunday.

If you only use one table per group it takes 6 rounds to complete the RR portion, so if you allow 3 hours per round, we would play 2 rounds (6 hours) on Friday and 4 rounds (12 hours on Saturday), and would only need 8 tables for the whole tournament. This also means that each player is only playing half that time or 3 hours on Friday and 6 hours on Saturday.

Obviously the single elimination portion would need only 4 tables on Sunday to get started.

Another interesting twist would be in how we select the players in each group. It could be random, or it could be seeded somehow, or it could be a situation where 8 captains are selected and they take turns selecting their group members (could be fun) especially if we introduced a pot bet ($$) as to which group will produce the winner.

Leaves plenty of time for action. Only needs 8 tables so more rooms could be considered. Naturally if we could get and use 16 tables for two days we could guarantee everybody more games easily.

Hope my math is correct, if not, it's the scotch.

P.S. Regarding the concern about some matches taking too long, if we could put into use an extra table or two when needed we could just go right around any long matches to keep everything moving along.

Maybe i don't understand. Who wins a group if all three matches in the group end up 2-2 ?

12squared · Sep 30, 2018

crabbcatjohn said:
Maybe i don't understand. Who wins a group if all three matches in the group end up 2-2 ?

Actually, if there are 4 to a bracket, each would play 3 games, you would not play yourself. Tie breakers would have to be in place anyway and I know they have been discussed.

Personally I like the idea of a break a piece so 2 games are played with each opponent and the breaks are fair. One game seems too little play to me.

I wouldn't be against this format where after the bracket winners have been decided (in this case 8), it turns into an 8-man single elimination race to 3 or 4.

darmoose · Sep 30, 2018

crabbcatjohn said:
Maybe i don't understand. Who wins a group if all three matches in the group end up 2-2 ?

Pretty unlikely, John. I think the odds are 14,865,931 to 1. But it could happen, i suppose. We would need a tie breaker of some sort.

Highest ball count
Pitching quarters
Foot race around the pool room
Hot dog eating contest

Take your pick.:lol

But seriously, if we wanna avoid that outcome I suppose we could play an odd number of games. There's always a solution, isn't there?

darmoose · Sep 30, 2018

12squared said:
Actually, if there are 4 to a bracket, each would play 3 games, you would not play yourself. Tie breakers would have to be in place anyway and I know they have been discussed.

Personally I like the idea of a break a piece so 2 games are played with each opponent and the breaks are fair. One game seems too little play to me.

I wouldn't be against this format where after the bracket winners have been decided (in this case 8), it turns into an 8-man single elimination race to 3 or 4.

Actually Dave, they could play any number of games we think there is time to play. Each man in a four man group would play three matches.

12squared · Sep 30, 2018

darmoose said:
Actually Dave, they could play any number of games we think there is time to play. Each man in a four man group would play three matches.

Ah I see said the blind man. I should learn how to read gooder, sorry.

Cory in dc · Oct 1, 2018

darmoose said:
Pretty unlikely, John. I think the odds are 14,865,931 to 1. But it could happen, i suppose. We would need a tie breaker of some sort.

Highest ball count
Pitching quarters
Foot race around the pool room
Hot dog eating contest

Take your pick.:lol

But seriously, if we wanna avoid that outcome I suppose we could play an odd number of games. There's always a solution, isn't there?

Can't use highest ball count to break ties. If it's tied, then each person has 8*#Wins as their ball count.

youngstown · Oct 1, 2018

Round Robin Format / MOT

Cory in dc said:
Same issue happens in DE.

I totally agree, and think that RR makes it much easier to dodge the problem (by skipping). Yes eventually you have to do the makeups, but there is less compound delaying. One other thing, is that people will need to take a break eventually. Maybe we plan a group dinner?

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 1, 2018

Thanks guys for the positive responses, and enthusiasm, excellent start! My main concern as of now in the development of the 1st rd. of the RR, is the "unknown".
1. Cory states; "30 min./game no way". Therefore if we boost this up to 45 min./game then that is a 1/3 increase in time. This would add to the 14 hrs., 4hrs. & 45min. "pretty significant"!
---
2. What is the target time for the 1st rd. to end and the 2nd. rd. to start on Sat. ?
---
From our Cali. MOT the bracket may give us the answers to how long each game took to complete the first rd. to get to 16 players. Also maybe someone remembers when the 1st rd. ended! If we knew the number of games played and the hrs. it took then we would know the avg. time it took/game! Help anyone, with input!
---
I had to leave around 2:00 on Sat. for being seriously feeling under the weather, but I feel 1st round play was raping up about then. I avg. 30 min./game over the 8 games I played. Maybe others can give us their avg.
---
This is vital in determining the 1st rd. format, and how to proceed with the 2nd. rd. format. If we can pull off the 1st rd. whereas players are ok with the number of games played then that in its self is huge. This IMO will take us to 6 or 7 pm on Sat. with the 2 game format @ 45 min. avg./game. So with 16 players left, and then if we switched and went to standard play of 3/2 then can we finish on Sunday on time? We will have approx. 20 hrs. of playing time left.
I have not worked on staying with RR for the 2nd rd. as of yet.
---
Another Question; What is the desired target # of players left going into Sunday's play, considering a 3/2 format?
-----
Remember, any games over 1 or 2 played against each player will increase the hrs. played tremendously, RR play does take time. Whitey

jtompilot · Oct 1, 2018

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Thanks guys for the positive responses, and enthusiasm, excellent start! My main concern as of now in the development of the 1st rd. of the RR, is the "unknown".
1. Cory states; "30 min./game no way". Therefore if we boost this up to 45 min./game then that is a 1/3 increase in time. This would add to the 14 hrs., 4hrs. & 45min. "pretty significant"!
---
2. What is the target time for the 1st rd. to end and the 2nd. rd. to start on Sat. ?
---
From our Cali. MOT the bracket may give us the answers to how long each game took to complete the first rd. to get to 16 players. Also maybe someone remembers when the 1st rd. ended! If we knew the number of games played and the hrs. it took then we would know the avg. time it took/game! Help anyone, with input!
---
I had to leave around 2:00 on Sat. for being seriously feeling under the weather, but I feel 1st round play was raping up about then. I avg. 30 min./game over the 8 games I played. Maybe others can give us their avg.
---
This is vital in determining the 1st rd. format, and how to proceed with the 2nd. rd. format. If we can pull off the 1st rd. whereas players are ok with the number of games played then that in its self is huge. This IMO will take us to 6 or 7 pm on Sat. with the 2 game format @ 45 min. avg./game. So with 16 players left, and then if we switched and went to standard play of 3/2 then can we finish on Sunday on time? We will have approx. 20 hrs. of playing time left.
I have not worked on staying with RR for the 2nd rd. as of yet.
---
Another Question; What is the desired target # of players left going into Sunday's play, considering a 3/2 format?
-----
Remember, any games over 1 or 2 played against each player will increase the hrs. played tremendously, RR play does take time. Whitey

I don’t remember how it all went down, I’m still in a state of sleep deprivation.
What I remember is we played two rounds Friday, Saturday I won my first match and didn’t have to play again till Sunday. I must have waited six hours between one of my Sunday matches.

darmoose · Oct 1, 2018

Cory in dc said:
Can't use highest ball count to break ties. If it's tied, then each person has 8*#Wins as their ball count.

Cory,

I intended to count all balls made, not just the 8 you made to win a game. For example, when you lose a game 8-3 you would get credit for the 3 balls you made. That will most likely break any tie, don't you think?

Round Robin Format / MOT

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