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  #21  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:32 PM
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SJDinPHX SJDinPHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
You used the right guy to talk about how much bullsh*t and self promotion Fats did. Mcgoorty was originally from Chicago so his story is known to us peoples. His book is filled with as much unadultered horse dung as the stables at Churchill Downs. Ask Grady what a wonderful reference point Danny McGoorty was, and much you could rely on his word. The only thing he told the truth about was that he was a drunken lout.

the Beard
No wonder I felt such a bonding to Danny....PLUS, he was Irish. (another Chicago escapee to California ?)

PS Actually Fred, he was born in S.F. His family moved to Chicago when he was a just a kid. They went backwards.
You have to admit, the opening few pages of his book (dealing with Chicago cops) is a riot, isn't it ?

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-02-2009 at 01:08 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:55 PM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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Default Im taking real steam

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX
You seem to want to hang it all out there and say he beat "everybody he ever played", when you KNOW he was getting weight, from a half drunk Richie Florence, and almost every other top player he ever matched up with.

There you go again, using that shitty ploy of accusing me of what I never, never, said to make a jerk off argument seem somehow plausable. Am I making these posts in Chinese where you need an interpreter that might misread to you what I said? Where did I ever, ever say he beat everybody he played? Then you use a quote from that shitheel McGoorty, where he says Fats would beat people by making them bet too much. You and McGoorty quoted that as if that was something bad to do.
"A half drunk Richie Florence." Was Richie half drunk the whole THIRTY (30) DAYS they played, and wasnt smart enough to sober up before he blew the whole $40,000 giving Fatty 8 to 7? Yeah, Richie spotted him. It must have been a terrific game for Richie since Ronnie Allen didnt take 50 cents of Richies bet.

I would REALLY question the circumstances surrounding him beating Squirrell, EVEN...at any time during the 60's. It's not a question of believing YOU, although you have admitedly been known to shade the truth.(or maybe omit extenuating circumstances, if it better suits your agenda)

And there you go again, again. Just about calling me a dunce or a f*ckin liar, and couching it in that con, "It's not a question of believing YOU." Well, who is it a question of? Who said it? I did. I said what I said -- do you want to bet against it? Am I to suffer some sort of penalty from everybody because I happen to have EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND the stories, and matches that you might have HEARD ABOUT?


What is your point ??? Is it because his roots are in Illinois ? Sorry Fred...but, your not wanting to play Fat's does not make him a shoo-in for the 1P HOF.. <---note smiley faces

Why dont you address what I said about Strawberry and Weenie Beanie? Two of our resident HOF'rs.

Lets give it a rest Fred, you have your take on Fat's ..and myself and quite a few others, have ours.
Yeah, lets give it a rest, but you close with another rhetoric trick, you concede my take on things, then you add your take, which would be fair --- but then you close with "quite a few others," to outnumber me. No names of course.


the Beard
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  #23  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
Yeah, lets give it a rest, but you close with another rhetoric trick, you concede my take on things, then you add your take, which would be fair --- but then you close with "quite a few others," to outnumber me. No names of course.


the Beard
Obviously, you've chosen to take this beyond "a difference of opinion" and make a federal case out of it. Unless you choose to ignore the gist of this thread... I would say the "others" I refer to, comprise about half the responders thus far. (you do read the other posts don't you ?)

The jury is still out on Fat's skills, or lack thereof...we have just chosen to re-convene it, in what I thought could be a friendly discourse. It is NOT a new subject you know. It has been brought up many, many times before, and the concensus is usually (by those who know) that Fatty talked a MUCH better game than he actually played.

I should have known better than to take an opposing viewpoint to yours. even though most of my slings and arrows, are "tongue in cheek"
You however, feel the need to get personal, if ANYONE challenges ANYTHING you say.

It must be a great feeling to be perfect, in all your player evaluations and recollections. Just once, can't we have a healthy argument...without your need to make YOURSELF an indisputable source of logic ?

Have you EVER admitted you just might possibly be mistaken ?


San <---has a weakness for hard-headed old P---ks... so he still wuvs you, but I guess I'll just have to learn to accept your word...as the "Gospool".

PS..The OP (Doc) asked a simple question...can't it even be discussed without bitterness and animosity ?

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-02-2009 at 02:55 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-02-2009, 02:56 PM
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androd androd is offline
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Default Could he play

SJD, Come on Dick you know FATS could play, I watched you play him every night for about 3 or 4 days straight.
Rod.
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  #25  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androd
SJD, Come on Dick you know FATS could play, I watched you play him every night for about 3 or 4 days straight.
Rod.

Rod,

I thought you might have been there, ('67 wasn't it ?) What was the game Rod, I honestly don't recall. I know we played even the exhibition match, race to 3 which I lost hill,hill (Seigel put up a grand to the winner for that)...I alluded to that in Robbin's book
I know I gave him weight for bigger cash the next few nights.
That was neither of our primes. He was over the hill and I was under it.

I admit I was a little unnerved by his playing too the crowd, (like he always did) during the exhibition. I liked it better when it thinned out to just the regulars. I liked our 2nd and 3rd play much better.

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 11-02-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:31 PM
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I am really enjoying this thread guys, keep it up.
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  #27  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:52 PM
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Default In Fats' Own Words

From "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies", in his own words:

"I hung around Broadway making a fabulous living on one-pocket wagers and the proposition pool. The way I put the high run and out to one-pocket was so brutal that after a while I couldn't get an even proposition anywhere. I had to spot a ball and then two balls just to get the action , but the odds didn't matter, because I'd run ten and out, ten and out, like forever. Talk about high runs, I must have run a thousand straight in one-pocket a hundred times. It got so that everybody on Broadway thought I invented the game, but I always told them the way it was- Jack Hill invented it down in Oklahoma, only the Fat Man was the one who refined it."

You gotta love the way he talked and bullshitted. Number one of all time.

Dennis
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  #28  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:03 PM
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everyone loved fats. the fact is when he played his best he was a ball or two under the best in the world. but sometime even the best in the world are a ball or two under the best in the world.
oh, not really everyone loved fats. the best players usually didnt. you see fats always seemed to have lots of cash and played high on his own. while the big names, not all but an awful lot were getting staked after begging for it and were simply jealous of him. plus the suckers waited in line for his action.
he drew the crowds and got all the attention now is the time to give him his do.

plus when the feds busted johnson city he got his say and saved the day.
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  #29  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:52 PM
lfigueroa lfigueroa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX
You must have a high dollar edition of the book Lou. It's on page 131-132 in my cheapo paperback.

McGoorty, hardcover, first edition :-)

I'm kinda surprised no one has cited "The Hustler and The Champ" yet.

"Wanderone was a fine pocket-billiards player, a skilled professional who easily fleeced farmers and sailors. But Wanderone never possessed the skill of pool's most celebrated champions. He could ape it, certainly, like all tricksters he could claim the prowess of others as his own. 'I played them all, and I beat them all!' he would crow. But this was a lie. Wanderone never competed in Mosconi's world-tournament level, never competed against Ponzi and Greenleaf and Joe 'Meatman' Balsis in structured competition, and maybe it was because he lacked the skill to do so. But this was not true of all hustlers. An example was John 'Rags' Fitzpatrick, remembered as perhaps the finest one-pocket player ever."

TH&TC, page 120

Lou Figueroa
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  #30  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:17 PM
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SJDinPHX SJDinPHX is offline
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Default Fat's was OK in my book...

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle
everyone loved fats. the fact is when he played his best he was a ball or two under the best in the world. but sometime even the best in the world are a ball or two under the best in the world.
oh, not really everyone loved fats. the best players usually didnt. you see fats always seemed to have lots of cash and played high on his own. while the big names, not all but an awful lot were getting staked after begging for it and were simply jealous of him. plus the suckers waited in line for his action. he drew the crowds and got all the attention now is the time to give him his do. plus when the feds busted johnson city he got his say and saved the day.
Beatle and Fred,

I don't think anybody really dis-liked Fats, you accepted him for what he was, and most people did.... Nobody "loves" everyone.

As Ive stated in everyone of my posts, he was a very unique, colorful, and likable character, the kind Damon Runyon loved to write about.

His demeanor was much like two of our most prominent posters here on 1p.org (care to hazard a guess) The only thing difference was, he accomplished all his fame and legend...DESPITE being a very abrasive, boastful, and self-centered individual... Not many can accomplish that.

If Fred does not wish to believe that the movie brought him a national prominence, he would never have enjoyed...well, thats Fred's take on it...but I think he knows, in his heart.. he's wrong.

He was a devout animal lover, which I share with him, and IMHO was his greatest attribute. His skill as a top player, was always in doubt, his "smart's" were NOT...But, as you say...he always seemed to stay in money, and that brought a lot of resentment from his peers...(I was not a peer)

If Freddy will let me say, what I've been trying to say all along...Fat's deserves a "special" award. A "Lifeime Achievement" award, if you will, (like they bestow rarely, at the Oscars)...not simply an "action" or HOF designation. But one that would singularly display his contribution to the history, and the lore of our game. Wouldn't that be befitting Steve ?

NO ONE would be more deserving of that, than Rudolph Wanderone.

SJD

PS..If anyone construes this as back peddling, they haven't really read and absorbed all my posts on the subject of Fat's. I never said he couldn't play a lick, I just said he was a few balls under his "self acclaimed" skill level.

Last edited by SJDinPHX; 10-10-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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