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Old 01-09-2010, 12:10 PM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Default Ruling Question(s) on accidentally moving object balls.

What happens if a player moves an object ball OR more than on object ball during his stroke/shot, (after legally contacting the cue ball)?

FOR THE RECORD: I'm not talking about gambling rules or house rules; ONLY TOURNAMENT RULES.

Sometimes a player may "accidentally" touch an object ball with his hand or stick after the shot moving the balls from positions not precisely known by either player; sometimes moving them long distances and even have the "accidentally" moved ball colliding into other object balls.

If the cue ball rolls back into the vicinity/path of where the "accidentally" moved object ball once sat, is it still not a foul?

I realize that if you accidentally move an object ball before contacting the cue ball, the ball or balls should be replaced to where they were located but that's not what I'm talking about.


The rules written in the forum seem to indicate that in one pocket, it is cue ball fouls only and that the ball or balls are to be placed back into their original position without giving the person who moved the balls any special advantage.
This still isn't very fair in my opinion. It seems to me that if you move any ball during your stroke (after making contact with the cue ball), with your cue stick or any portion of your body, or anything else except a legally contacted ball, it should be a foul.

Are there any other rules for one pocket that specifically address this problem?

Thanks in advance for your perspective and interpretation of the rules of one pocket.

Sincerely,
JoeyA
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:52 PM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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Rule 1.16.1 that is referred to in the OnePocket.org official rules clearly describes how that is handled (when moving an object ball becomes a foul) -- especially if you are specifically asking about tournament play. This being the General Rule referred to from the BCA/World Standard Rules:

1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.

According to these rules, it's only a foul if it affects the outcome of the shot
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:59 PM
senor senor is offline
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Not sure if this is correct, but I've always played that if any moving ball crossed the path of any object ball or cue ball, whether the ball made contact with any other balls or not, it is a foul.

Of course, this brings interpretation into play. Even if the moved ball does not affect the shot or cross paths, it could affect the game by moving one or any number of balls on the table. How would the players know to move all balls moved back to the original spot? What if the opponent had a large advantage with a cluster of balls being in a particular position that was accidentally moved by someone's hand or cue stick?

It sounds like you're saying you're in favor of all ball fouls after the cue ball has been struck. Not sure if I would agree with that. There are just some instances where it would be an an arbitrary rule where there would be fouls called where the ball(s) moved had no effect on the game. I would hate for this game to be subject to some idiots standing over your every shot waiting to throw the rule book at you.
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyA
What happens if a player moves an object ball OR more than on object ball during his stroke/shot, (after legally contacting the cue ball)?

FOR THE RECORD: I'm not talking about gambling rules or house rules; ONLY TOURNAMENT RULES.

Sometimes a player may "accidentally" touch an object ball with his hand or stick after the shot moving the balls from positions not precisely known by either player; sometimes moving them long distances and even have the "accidentally" moved ball colliding into other object balls.

If the cue ball rolls back into the vicinity/path of where the "accidentally" moved object ball once sat, is it still not a foul?

I realize that if you accidentally move an object ball before contacting the cue ball, the ball or balls should be replaced to where they were located but that's not what I'm talking about.


The rules written in the forum seem to indicate that in one pocket, it is cue ball fouls only and that the ball or balls are to be placed back into their original position without giving the person who moved the balls any special advantage.
This still isn't very fair in my opinion. It seems to me that if you move any ball during your stroke (after making contact with the cue ball), with your cue stick or any portion of your body, or anything else except a legally contacted ball, it should be a foul.

Are there any other rules for one pocket that specifically address this problem?

Thanks in advance for your perspective and interpretation of the rules of one pocket.

Sincerely,
JoeyA
Joey-- Here's the World General Rule 1.16.1:

1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.


So it's only a foul if the disturbed balls affect the outcome of the shot, or if the issue of the disturbed pool balls is not addressed prior to the shooter's next shot. However the rule seems to indicate that if the player does go ahead and shoot his next shot, and the balls set into motion do not contact the unrestored ball(s), or roll into the position that had been occupied by the unrestored ball(s), then it still is not a foul.

Here is a little more succinct wording from the World Pool-Billiard Association, Rule 20:

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

This rule seems to state that if the shooter continues to his next shot without giving the opponent the chance to restore the ball(s), it is a foul-- even if the disturbed ball(s) did not affect the outcome or path of the ball(s).

And of course, the "cue ball in hand" penalty would not apply to one-pocket. The CB would be played from where it laid.

Doc
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:34 PM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve
Rule 1.16.1 that is referred to in the OnePocket.org official rules clearly describes how that is handled (when moving an object ball becomes a foul) -- especially if you are specifically asking about tournament play. This being the General Rule referred to from the BCA/World Standard Rules:

1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.

According to these rules, it's only a foul if it affects the outcome of the shot
So it is permitted for an opponent to shoot a shot, legally hitting the cue ball and then he can "accidentally" hit an object ball and it can bump into ONE OR MORE other object balls, AND AS LONG AS THOSE OBJECT BALLS DON'T AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE SHOT and IF THE CUE BALL DOESN'T COME INTO THE PATH OR REGION OF THE "ACCIDENTALLY" DISTURBED BALLS, IT IS NOT A FOUL?

I think this is a poor rule if this is the case.

I understand that one pocket is a game that some leeway is needed because of the difficult position that you often find the cue ball and object balls in. A good example is when you are bridging over a group of balls and accidentally touch one ball and move it. Certainly, it makes sense to have the disturbed ball restored to its original position without penalty, as long as the disturbed ball was moved before contacting the cue ball. If the disturbed ball bumps into any other ball, I think it should be a foul. This would eliminate many arguments and problems.

To me the shot is EVERYTHING that happens to ALL OF THE BALLS.

Right now, the way the rules are, the shooter may be at a disadvantage because of the layout of the balls and he can change all of that by legally hitting the cue ball and then "accidentally" use his hand or cue stick to re-position ANY NUMBER OF BALLS, to eliminate that disadvantage just as long as the cue ball doesn't come in the region of the disturbed balls or vice versa.

I have played many games of one pocket and the position of the balls can sometimes be paralyzing for the shooter. That is one of the fun things and vexing things about one pocket.

To allow the shooter to "accidentally" change the layout of the table is unfair to his opponent. Bumping one ball accidentally while placing your bridge hand shouldn't require a penalty, but if you bump a ball during or after the shot, it should require a penalty.

Just my $.02.

JoeyA
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyA
So it is permitted for an opponent to shoot a shot, legally hitting the cue ball and then he can "accidentally" hit an object ball and it can bump into ONE OR MORE other object balls, AND AS LONG AS THOSE OBJECT BALLS DON'T AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE SHOT and IF THE CUE BALL DOESN'T COME INTO THE PATH OR REGION OF THE "ACCIDENTALLY" DISTURBED BALLS, IT IS NOT A FOUL?
The opponent is permitted to object if the shooter disturbs the balls. The opponent may then either restore them, or leave them as they lay. If he says nothing, then if it's still his inning the shooter can continue to shoot with the balls in their new position.

However if the opponent objects, but the shooter nevertheless continues to shoot, then it is a foul.

In other words, the only way a shooter could get away with "accidentally-on-purpose" moving the other balls during a normal shot is if the opponent didn't object.

Doc
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:54 PM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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I am not sure but the World Standard rules might consider it a foul if multiple balls are moved. If they did, we would too -- for this we rely on the standard rules.

We could extend more specific rule specifically for One Pocket if the consensus was that because of One Pocket's unique strategies, it needs to have an extra protection against "accidentally" disturbing balls. I kind of think enough protection may already be in place with the rule we already have in place, specifically for One Pocket, that "When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player."

Joey, I am wondering how a player could take advantage like you are describing, unless of course they were surreptitiously moving balls -- but that's downright cheating. There's different "rules" that apply to cheating
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:29 AM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve
I am not sure but the World Standard rules might consider it a foul if multiple balls are moved. If they did, we would too -- for this we rely on the standard rules.

We could extend more specific rule specifically for One Pocket if the consensus was that because of One Pocket's unique strategies, it needs to have an extra protection against "accidentally" disturbing balls. I kind of think enough protection may already be in place with the rule we already have in place, specifically for One Pocket, that "When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player."

Joey, I am wondering how a player could take advantage like you are describing, unless of course they were surreptitiously moving balls -- but that's downright cheating. There's different "rules" that apply to cheating
Cheating is a hard thing to prove. An opponent cannot read a person's mind to know what they are truly thinking. Most people don't recognize cheating even when they see it and are unlikely to call it when they do see it.

I think the amount of protection that is in place favors the better player than the lesser player. A lesser player would be more unlikely to try or even see such a way as to eliminate a distinct disadvantage that is facing them.

Maybe the one pocket world thinks there is adequate protection with the rules in place and that's perfectly all right with me. I feel a bit more qualified than some to defend myself against most cheaters and have seldom hesitated in crying "foul" when I thought evil afoot.

I pride myself on not cheating and not sharking; and only wish that more did the same. Personally, I think the rule should be that you can foul on any ball whether its one pocket or 9 Ball but that's just me.

Thanks Steve!

JoeyA
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:44 PM
boradriver boradriver is offline
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just had a situation like this happen last night in a cheap gambling session.

I was leaning over the table to cut a ball into my pocket and my shirt apparently touched a ball but it didn't move. The guy I was playing saw my shirt touch and didn't say anything until right after I hit the cue ball. As soon as I hit the cueball he yelled foul then the cueball went 2 rails and hit the ball he said I touched. He said it is definatly a foul now. I told him fine whatever you think the ruling is I will go alone with that. I had my reason for being so agreeable to this foul he called which I will explain later.

So my question is since he said he saw my shirt touch the ball before I shot should he have told me then and moved the ball back if the felt it moved? Or do you let your oponent shoot and then call teh foul?

I had never had this happen before so I didn't know the ruling so he started asking other players in the room. They told him it was not a foul, because he admitted he saw my shirt touch the ball well before I shot and should have made me aware and he would then have the option to move the ball back. Even after they told him this he still wanted it to be a foul which I again agreed to but I also asked him "Are you sure he wanted to play that rule?"
After he thought for a few minutes he said it was not a foul and didn't want it to be a foul while we are gambling. So he moved the ball back 1/2" to where he said it was and let me continue shooting.

Now for the reason he changed his tune so quickly- He is about 5'9" and about 350lbs and I would guess about a 60" waist. Everytime he is at the table his belly is touch something.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boradriver
just had a situation like this happen last night in a cheap gambling session.

I was leaning over the table to cut a ball into my pocket and my shirt apparently touched a ball but it didn't move. The guy I was playing saw my shirt touch and didn't say anything until right after I hit the cue ball. As soon as I hit the cueball he yelled foul then the cueball went 2 rails and hit the ball he said I touched. He said it is definatly a foul now. I told him fine whatever you think the ruling is I will go alone with that. I had my reason for being so agreeable to this foul he called which I will explain later.

So my question is since he said he saw my shirt touch the ball before I shot should he have told me then and moved the ball back if the felt it moved? Or do you let your oponent shoot and then call teh foul?
In my opinion he would have had to object prior to your shot making. In any case, mere touching of an OB does not constitute a foul. If it did not move, the touched ball had no effect on the outcome of the shot you described anyhow.

Doc
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