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Old 10-26-2011, 10:18 AM
Scrzbill Scrzbill is offline
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Default Player of year

Last year there were at least three major one pocket tournaments. DCC, CA Billiard Invitational, Las Vegas. I am sure there were others. I had a idea that adding something from each tournament, there could be a Player of the Year award with a cash stipend. The players do not make enough money for their talents. It is like the old days of the NFL when the pros had to work a regular job to get by.
Did you know the Courier Journal, a major US newspaper does not even cover the event? I ask them earlier this year to let me write a blog for their sporting section and they said there was no interest.
Where is ESPN?
Where is any sports reporting?
Until pool gets recognized as a sport with its own top players, the HOF's of pool will continue to be chosen by back room play and not talent.
If the same criteria was held for the football players who had a job to live like betting is held to pool, then no one who ever played and had a job would be in footballs HOF.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:01 PM
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tonygreen tonygreen is offline
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The huge issue is Pool or Billiards not being included as an Olympic event, dont you think? So what does it take to qualify as an Olympic event? The International Olympic Committee must recognize it as a sport, and it must have an international governing body that sets rules and administers competitions. The activity must also be "widely practiced by men in at least 75 countries and on four continents, and by women in at least 40 countries and on three continents." There is a well-established, long-running competitive sport that I would like to be the first to propose for inclusion in the next Olympics. This contest is a fierce test of both men and women's physical strength, coordination, stamina, and discipline. The sport includes a strict set of rules and an international body with international championships, featuring contestants from around the globe. Ladies and germs, prepare for the next great Olympic competition...Air Guitar! ... after starting this post i started researching and the more I started looking the more I couldnt stop looking. Listen, the push for billiards’ to be included in the Olympics date as far back as the 1950s. Not only did billiards have difficulty complying with the definition of sports under the Olympic Charter, but the IOC also demanded that only one organization represent all billiard sports in the discussion ((huge problem)). Sound familiar to the MPBA or whatever acronym it was from the 90's?. In 1998, the IOC finally granted recognition to the WCBS, which meant in part that billiard sports would be treated going forward as one sport
and the International World Games Association (IWGA) decided to include billiard sports into the program of the 2001 Akita World Games, with four medals to be competed for in carom, pool and snooker. Following the inclusion of billiard sports in the World Games, they (the WCBS) then focused on getting billiards into the program of the Olympic Games.Unfortunately, Ten years later the dream of moving on into the Olympics continues to be just a dream for us. What can we do?
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrzbill View Post
I had a idea that adding something from each tournament, there could be a Player of the Year award with a cash stipend.
I don't really think that men who would rather live by their wits without resorting to work should get anything extra from anybody but, just for the sake of argument, let's take your idea to it's logical conclusion.

Let's say there is a multi-billionaire, maniacal pool fan out there and he decides to establish a "Player Of The Year" award, in the amount of $100,000, to be given to the top points winner of ten major tournaments. He establishes how many points will be awarded for 1st through 20th places at the top ten tourneys in this country.

That's a wonderful idea right? Let's also say that after 9 tournaments have been played the two top players are within a point or two of each other. Guess what happens next. Yep, the two top players meet in the finals of the 10th and deciding tourney to battle it out for 1st & 2nd place and more importantly for the $100,000 Player Of The Year award. Now I expect you will see one of the most hard-fought and greatest matches that these two players have ever played in their lives, right? Wrong. Since neither of them wants to take the chance of missing out on a big payday they have decided beforehand to whack-up the $100,000. Now they just go through the motions in the match and try to put on a good show for the people watching but that's difficult to do with no pressure on either player isn't it? So they play a shitty match, missing balls & runouts from everywhere. The spectators boo and are pissed off because they all know what is happening and the T.V. (this is a fantasy right?) commentators call for investigations into what is happening before their very eyes, live on national T.V..

Thousands of letters & e-mails are sent to the tournament directors, T.V. executives, player organizations and sponsors of the tourney and they are complaining about what they witnessed live on T.V. from these two players. People start boycotts of the products advertised by the sponsors of the tourney and those sponsors disavow any and all knowledge of what took place.

All of the sponsors withdraw their names and products from any future tournaments that feature pool, in any form.

The T.V. executives decide to never in life have a major pool tournament broadcast again after the fiasco they just saw.

The multi-billionaire says "to hell with these jerk-offs" and decides to never offer the $100,000 POTY award again.

The two players don't care what anyone thinks or does, they both scored $50,000 and are very happy even though they are on the way to the casino to lose it all.

If you think this isn't a likely scenario just ask Buddy Hall & Mike LeBron about the tournament they colluded in to ensure the outcome of and many here want to enshrine Buddy Hall in our HOF even though most know of his dishonest ways and treachery.

One of the reasons that golfers, tennis players, baseball players and many others make so much money is this:

When you saw Jack & Arnie walking to the 18th tee in a major you knew they hadn't decided to whack-up the money for 1st and 2nd place. You know that Tiger & Phil aren't splitting 1st & 2nd place cash no matter what happens, it's all on the level and we know it.

When you see Serena Williams playing injured and winning anyway you know that she hasn't pre-arranged a split with her opponent. In the same way you knew that Johnny Mac wasn't whacking-up Wimbledon with Bjorn Borg when they matched up. Because of that we saw some of the greatest tennis two humans ever played.

When you saw "Sugar" Ray Robinson fight Jake Lamotta six times you knew that it was on the level. Nobody who saw Ali fight Frazier three times would ever say "it's a fix". Those guys fought for their lives in the ring and we appreciated it because we knew it was real.

When you see the ballplayers from Texas and St. Louis playing in the World Series you know they aren't in cahoots to whack-up the cash the winners get, they are playing for history and a chance to be a hero and maybe one day get mentioned with the greatest that ever played the game. They want to be in the HOF at Cooperstown with the Babe, the Iron Horse, Stan the Man, and 292 others from the past who've reached that pinnacle in baseball. They want their names to be spoken of reverently with the greatest ever to play the game.

They want to be above Eddie Cicotte, "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and the other 6 from the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox". They want to be better than Pete Rose and others who bet on baseball while they were a part of it.

The reasons that pool will never be cared about again in this country as it once was many years ago are many and varied but one of the main reasons is the dishonest, lying, cheating thieves who play the game will continue to forever hold it back and there's nothing you can do to change that. They don't care about themselves so why should anybody else?

Dennis
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Scrzbill Scrzbill is offline
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Dennis, if you have ever read anything I have ever written about the subject, you would know that I have been racked over the coals because of my disapproval of slimy tactics. Many players think that dishonesty and pool should go hand in hand. I don't.
One of the people I have admired as a pool player and a person for many years is also a honest gentlemen. He is a very decent person first, a family man next, a pool player last. It has been my honor to play him and travel with him over the years. I know he would never knowingly cheat or be dishonest. I don't want to hang around those types and don't, won't.
There is a big difference between hustling other players and being a lamb killer.
That all said, I still would like a one pocket player of the year award from at least three of the tournaments I mentioned. The Derby has a king of the hill, one pocket can too.
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:12 PM
lfigueroa lfigueroa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
I don't really think that men who would rather live by their wits without resorting to work should get anything extra from anybody but, just for the sake of argument, let's take your idea to it's logical conclusion.

Let's say there is a multi-billionaire, maniacal pool fan out there and he decides to establish a "Player Of The Year" award, in the amount of $100,000, to be given to the top points winner of ten major tournaments. He establishes how many points will be awarded for 1st through 20th places at the top ten tourneys in this country.

That's a wonderful idea right? Let's also say that after 9 tournaments have been played the two top players are within a point or two of each other. Guess what happens next. Yep, the two top players meet in the finals of the 10th and deciding tourney to battle it out for 1st & 2nd place and more importantly for the $100,000 Player Of The Year award. Now I expect you will see one of the most hard-fought and greatest matches that these two players have ever played in their lives, right? Wrong. Since neither of them wants to take the chance of missing out on a big payday they have decided beforehand to whack-up the $100,000. Now they just go through the motions in the match and try to put on a good show for the people watching but that's difficult to do with no pressure on either player isn't it? So they play a shitty match, missing balls & runouts from everywhere. The spectators boo and are pissed off because they all know what is happening and the T.V. (this is a fantasy right?) commentators call for investigations into what is happening before their very eyes, live on national T.V..

Thousands of letters & e-mails are sent to the tournament directors, T.V. executives, player organizations and sponsors of the tourney and they are complaining about what they witnessed live on T.V. from these two players. People start boycotts of the products advertised by the sponsors of the tourney and those sponsors disavow any and all knowledge of what took place.

All of the sponsors withdraw their names and products from any future tournaments that feature pool, in any form.

The T.V. executives decide to never in life have a major pool tournament broadcast again after the fiasco they just saw.

The multi-billionaire says "to hell with these jerk-offs" and decides to never offer the $100,000 POTY award again.

The two players don't care what anyone thinks or does, they both scored $50,000 and are very happy even though they are on the way to the casino to lose it all.

If you think this isn't a likely scenario just ask Buddy Hall & Mike LeBron about the tournament they colluded in to ensure the outcome of and many here want to enshrine Buddy Hall in our HOF even though most know of his dishonest ways and treachery.

One of the reasons that golfers, tennis players, baseball players and many others make so much money is this:

When you saw Jack & Arnie walking to the 18th tee in a major you knew they hadn't decided to whack-up the money for 1st and 2nd place. You know that Tiger & Phil aren't splitting 1st & 2nd place cash no matter what happens, it's all on the level and we know it.

When you see Serena Williams playing injured and winning anyway you know that she hasn't pre-arranged a split with her opponent. In the same way you knew that Johnny Mac wasn't whacking-up Wimbledon with Bjorn Borg when they matched up. Because of that we saw some of the greatest tennis two humans ever played.

When you saw "Sugar" Ray Robinson fight Jake Lamotta six times you knew that it was on the level. Nobody who saw Ali fight Frazier three times would ever say "it's a fix". Those guys fought for their lives in the ring and we appreciated it because we knew it was real.

When you see the ballplayers from Texas and St. Louis playing in the World Series you know they aren't in cahoots to whack-up the cash the winners get, they are playing for history and a chance to be a hero and maybe one day get mentioned with the greatest that ever played the game. They want to be in the HOF at Cooperstown with the Babe, the Iron Horse, Stan the Man, and 292 others from the past who've reached that pinnacle in baseball. They want their names to be spoken of reverently with the greatest ever to play the game.

They want to be above Eddie Cicotte, "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and the other 6 from the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox". They want to be better than Pete Rose and others who bet on baseball while they were a part of it.

The reasons that pool will never be cared about again in this country as it once was many years ago are many and varied but one of the main reasons is the dishonest, lying, cheating thieves who play the game will continue to forever hold it back and there's nothing you can do to change that. They don't care about themselves so why should anybody else?

Dennis

I can't say that I agree with 100% of what you wrote, but I do with a lot of it. Very eloquent too.

Lou Figueroa
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:56 PM
lll lll is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrzbill View Post
Dennis, if you have ever read anything I have ever written about the subject, you would know that I have been racked over the coals because of my disapproval of slimy tactics. Many players think that dishonesty and pool should go hand in hand. I don't.
One of the people I have admired as a pool player and a person for many years is also a honest gentlemen. He is a very decent person first, a family man next, a pool player last. It has been my honor to play him and travel with him over the years. I know he would never knowingly cheat or be dishonest. I don't want to hang around those types and don't, won't.
There is a big difference between hustling other players and being a lamb killer.
That all said, I still would like a one pocket player of the year award from at least three of the tournaments I mentioned. The Derby has a king of the hill, one pocket can too.
could you name that person??
or pm me
thanks
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:58 PM
lll lll is online now
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Dennis
you always seem to hit the nail om the head
(except in monday night football)
another spot on post
larry
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:14 AM
petie petie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
I don't really think that men who would rather live by their wits without resorting to work should get anything extra from anybody but, just for the sake of argument, let's take your idea to it's logical conclusion.

Let's say there is a multi-billionaire, maniacal pool fan out there and he decides to establish a "Player Of The Year" award, in the amount of $100,000, to be given to the top points winner of ten major tournaments. He establishes how many points will be awarded for 1st through 20th places at the top ten tourneys in this country.

That's a wonderful idea right? Let's also say that after 9 tournaments have been played the two top players are within a point or two of each other. Guess what happens next. Yep, the two top players meet in the finals of the 10th and deciding tourney to battle it out for 1st & 2nd place and more importantly for the $100,000 Player Of The Year award. Now I expect you will see one of the most hard-fought and greatest matches that these two players have ever played in their lives, right? Wrong. Since neither of them wants to take the chance of missing out on a big payday they have decided beforehand to whack-up the $100,000. Now they just go through the motions in the match and try to put on a good show for the people watching but that's difficult to do with no pressure on either player isn't it? So they play a shitty match, missing balls & runouts from everywhere. The spectators boo and are pissed off because they all know what is happening and the T.V. (this is a fantasy right?) commentators call for investigations into what is happening before their very eyes, live on national T.V..

Thousands of letters & e-mails are sent to the tournament directors, T.V. executives, player organizations and sponsors of the tourney and they are complaining about what they witnessed live on T.V. from these two players. People start boycotts of the products advertised by the sponsors of the tourney and those sponsors disavow any and all knowledge of what took place.

All of the sponsors withdraw their names and products from any future tournaments that feature pool, in any form.

The T.V. executives decide to never in life have a major pool tournament broadcast again after the fiasco they just saw.

The multi-billionaire says "to hell with these jerk-offs" and decides to never offer the $100,000 POTY award again.

The two players don't care what anyone thinks or does, they both scored $50,000 and are very happy even though they are on the way to the casino to lose it all.

If you think this isn't a likely scenario just ask Buddy Hall & Mike LeBron about the tournament they colluded in to ensure the outcome of and many here want to enshrine Buddy Hall in our HOF even though most know of his dishonest ways and treachery.

One of the reasons that golfers, tennis players, baseball players and many others make so much money is this:

When you saw Jack & Arnie walking to the 18th tee in a major you knew they hadn't decided to whack-up the money for 1st and 2nd place. You know that Tiger & Phil aren't splitting 1st & 2nd place cash no matter what happens, it's all on the level and we know it.

When you see Serena Williams playing injured and winning anyway you know that she hasn't pre-arranged a split with her opponent. In the same way you knew that Johnny Mac wasn't whacking-up Wimbledon with Bjorn Borg when they matched up. Because of that we saw some of the greatest tennis two humans ever played.

When you saw "Sugar" Ray Robinson fight Jake Lamotta six times you knew that it was on the level. Nobody who saw Ali fight Frazier three times would ever say "it's a fix". Those guys fought for their lives in the ring and we appreciated it because we knew it was real.

When you see the ballplayers from Texas and St. Louis playing in the World Series you know they aren't in cahoots to whack-up the cash the winners get, they are playing for history and a chance to be a hero and maybe one day get mentioned with the greatest that ever played the game. They want to be in the HOF at Cooperstown with the Babe, the Iron Horse, Stan the Man, and 292 others from the past who've reached that pinnacle in baseball. They want their names to be spoken of reverently with the greatest ever to play the game.

They want to be above Eddie Cicotte, "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and the other 6 from the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox". They want to be better than Pete Rose and others who bet on baseball while they were a part of it.

The reasons that pool will never be cared about again in this country as it once was many years ago are many and varied but one of the main reasons is the dishonest, lying, cheating thieves who play the game will continue to forever hold it back and there's nothing you can do to change that. They don't care about themselves so why should anybody else?

Dennis

Dennis,

Let's for a moment look at this clinically as in...What does this patient suffer from? How did he get it? and Is there a cure or at least a treatment. Not to do this would be to believe that a bunch of low lifes hang out one day and decide to infest the pool world until they are the only top players in the country. This is of course absurd so let's ask the questions.

I can already see that this will be more involved than I can keep up with so let me just say that I believe there are root causes for the problem that tend to incent the current behavior. For decades there has been lower prize money in tournaments at all levels than almost any other sport. Less money can be won than what it takes to participate. Multiply all the prize money in the country and divide by the number of players. What do you get? The main source of prize money is the enrollment fees for the event.
Players have travelling expenses that far exceed the share of the prize money they can hope to win consistently. Maybe one or two can do it but what you have currently is that all the other participants are paying for the few who can win enough to survive. What’s left? Scrappin’ and hustlin’.

If you are hustling, you already have a hard life. The stories about sleeping in your car are too real. Money does become your God. The only way you would be able to relate is if you have actually been down to your last dollar yourself. From there it looks way different than it does from here. Suppose you have a family and are out of work and you are in this situation. Is it more noble to feed your family by doing a little flim flammin’ or to let them starve as you gratuitously and selfrightiously try to portray yourself as too good for that? I could go on and on but I would bore myself not to mention anyone who reads this.

The patient needs a lot of things. He needs a good player organization that has a board of directors, by-laws, player behavior training, penalties for infringements, sponsorship rules, sanctioning rites, promotion activities, etc. Every pool player in America drives a car, uses laundry soap and tooth paste, travels, and otherwise consumes, consumes, consumes. This forms the basis for sponsorship for large prize money.

A few years of healthy activity and prize money will make everybody forget the checkered past. What do you think? Dreamin’? What year will this begin to go the right way? Who wll lead us? Steve? Dennis? Bill?:0)

Last edited by petie; 10-27-2011 at 09:18 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:05 AM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petie View Post
Dennis,

Let's for a moment look at this clinically as in...What does this patient suffer from? How did he get it? and Is there a cure or at least a treatment. Not to do this would be to believe that a bunch of low lifes hang out one day and decide to infest the pool world until they are the only top players in the country. This is of course absurd so let's ask the questions.

I can already see that this will be more involved than I can keep up with so let me just say that I believe there are root causes for the problem that tend to incent the current behavior. For decades there has been lower prize money in tournaments at all levels than almost any other sport. Less money can be won than what it takes to participate. Multiply all the prize money in the country and divide by the number of players. What do you get? The main source of prize money is the enrollment fees for the event.
Players have travelling expenses that far exceed the share of the prize money they can hope to win consistently. Maybe one or two can do it but what you have currently is that all the other participants are paying for the few who can win enough to survive. What’s left? Scrappin’ and hustlin’.

If you are hustling, you already have a hard life. The stories about sleeping in your car are too real. Money does become your God. The only way you would be able to relate is if you have actually been down to your last dollar yourself. From there it looks way different than it does from here. Suppose you have a family and are out of work and you are in this situation. Is it more noble to feed your family by doing a little flim flammin’ or to let them starve as you gratuitously and selfrightiously try to portray yourself as too good for that? I could go on and on but I would bore myself not to mention anyone who reads this.

The patient needs a lot of things. He needs a good player organization that has a board of directors, by-laws, player behavior training, penalties for infringements, sponsorship rules, sanctioning rites, promotion activities, etc. Every pool player in America drives a car, uses laundry soap and tooth paste, travels, and otherwise consumes, consumes, consumes. This forms the basis for sponsorship for large prize money.

A few years of healthy activity and prize money will make everybody forget the checkered past. What do you think? Dreamin’? What year will this begin to go the right way? Who wll lead us? Steve? Dennis? Bill?:0)
In the 60s in Ft Lauderdale I hung out at the Miscue Lounge. Several golf pros from the Plantation Country Club also hung there. Most notable was the great Marty Stanovich, AKA The Fat Man. The greatest golf hustler/gambler/player of all time. The payoffs in the golf tourneys then were so poor that Marty would wait until the end and play the winner for what he earned. Look him up. He beat every human for the cash. Along with Marty in the room were several other golf pros who would steal their mama's soc sec check if she left it out. As much larceny in the hearts as Detroit Whitey. They hustled dice and cheated at cards along with gambling on the tees.

They often went with Sugar Shack and I when we went out hustling the bars. They were doing good themselves at Plantation, and didnt even want an end, and would buy all the drinks. They just enjoyed watching suckers getting beat.

The Fat Man kept so-called smart hustlers like Bobby Riggs broke.

Beard

Look him up. He was almost as colorful as our Fatty.
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petie View Post
Dennis,

Let's for a moment look at this clinically as in...What does this patient suffer from? How did he get it? and Is there a cure or at least a treatment. Not to do this would be to believe that a bunch of low lifes hang out one day and decide to infest the pool world until they are the only top players in the country. This is of course absurd so let's ask the questions.

I can already see that this will be more involved than I can keep up with so let me just say that I believe there are root causes for the problem that tend to incent the current behavior. For decades there has been lower prize money in tournaments at all levels than almost any other sport. Less money can be won than what it takes to participate. Multiply all the prize money in the country and divide by the number of players. What do you get? The main source of prize money is the enrollment fees for the event.
Players have travelling expenses that far exceed the share of the prize money they can hope to win consistently. Maybe one or two can do it but what you have currently is that all the other participants are paying for the few who can win enough to survive. What’s left? Scrappin’ and hustlin’.

If you are hustling, you already have a hard life. The stories about sleeping in your car are too real. Money does become your God. The only way you would be able to relate is if you have actually been down to your last dollar yourself. From there it looks way different than it does from here. Suppose you have a family and are out of work and you are in this situation. Is it more noble to feed your family by doing a little flim flammin’ or to let them starve as you gratuitously and selfrightiously try to portray yourself as too good for that? I could go on and on but I would bore myself not to mention anyone who reads this.

The patient needs a lot of things. He needs a good player organization that has a board of directors, by-laws, player behavior training, penalties for infringements, sponsorship rules, sanctioning rites, promotion activities, etc. Every pool player in America drives a car, uses laundry soap and tooth paste, travels, and otherwise consumes, consumes, consumes. This forms the basis for sponsorship for large prize money.

A few years of healthy activity and prize money will make everybody forget the checkered past. What do you think? Dreamin’? What year will this begin to go the right way? Who wll lead us? Steve? Dennis? Bill?:0)
Petie,

Nobody forced these guys to shoot pool for a living, they entered into it on their own accord and knowing what was in store. They know there's no money in it, they know it costs more to travel to a tournament and get a room than they're likely to win. They know these things going in and make a free choice to do it anyway, they are owed nothing by anyone for the situations they find themselves in.

To suggest that the situation they find themselves in can change an honest man into a dishonest man is very wrong. A persons character does not change because he's poor or needs to feed his family. When money becomes a persons god he needs to find a new religion. To make the choice be between cheating or feeding your family is not a good scenario either, they could get a job at McDonalds and make more money per year than most of them make now. They chose this life, they would, as I said in my previous post, rather live by their wits without resorting to work. It's not like a factory closed down and they found themselves out on the street with nothing else to do.

I've been saying for years that all a man needs to be a top poolplayer is a wife or girlfriend with a job and no self-respect. This has not changed. Most of the players aren't in it for the money anyway despite how it looks sometimes. In Ned Polsky's book "Hustlers, Beats, and Others" there is a quote attributed to Blaise Pascal that I always found interesting:

"Such a man spends all his life playing every day for small stakes. Give him every morning the money that he may gain during the day, on condition that he does not play- you will make him unhappy. It will perhaps be said that what he seeks is the amusement of play, not gain. Let him play then for nothing; he will lose interest and be wearied."

I've always thought this quote was very accurate. If you took the top 100 players in this country and gave them everyday the money they would make that day but forbid them from playing, they would refuse you.

Anyway Petie, as you said, it's complicated and nobody really cares too much anyway. We are all trying to get through our own lives with our own problems, why should we care about guys who can't get up and go to work everyday?

Dennis
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