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Old 03-07-2012, 09:10 AM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default Bank lesson 2: how do you get max ob spin on cut banks

Ok, as I mentioned in the other thread, I set up an experiment a while back, and redid it a few days ago. I was thrilled to see J Brumback mention that he feels the same... anyway, here is what I did:

First, my question was -- how can you put max spin on an ob on a cut bank. I'm no good with the wei tables, but the first thing I did was put a piece of chalk (a penny may have been better) on the rail to ensure I was hitting about the same spot every time. If the chalk didn't fly, I discarded the results. MAybe I need a wei table, but what I did was shoot banks into that chalk from THE SAME ob location, yet I moved the cb from full hits to thin hits.

Let me just say what I found, I think that is less confusing.

1) center ball hits seemed to transfer the maximum english based on seeing how long I could get the ob off that 1 rail.

2) thin cuts and thick cuts could not transfer nearly as much english as HALF BALL hits. This was pronounced. That half ball, center on the cb hits were really the ones to torque that ob over the most.

The results were surprising because you may think that an inside ball would transfer more spin to the ob. This just wasn't true. I couldn't get the ob anywhere near as long with an inside ball than with a center ball.

I'll work on the wei table thing because I think this post is super wordy and lacking And, as always, thanks for any input and/or telling me I am dead wrong (or right ).
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:28 AM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Ok, this is ghetto, I just stole from the forum over there. Ignore all the other balls lol. This was my experiment.... what I did was set up an ob at point B every time. Chalk was sitting ON the cushion (felt part) at spot A. I varied the cb position from X, Y and Z... and shot with ALL different sorts of spin (inside top, inside low, outside bottom etc) from each spot. That line between A and B is supposed to be parallel to the side cushions too, may not look it in the pic.

Again, it was so pronounced. Center ball, with cb in position Y BY FAR got the ob over to the pocket the most. I could actually come close to making it with center from there after bouncing the chalk off... but making that exact shot will vary by table and isn't really the point here. The other variations weren't even coming close.

In short, I think center is the answer to the question.... which i'm sure everybody but me here knew before now So we can all delete this thread now if you want, just tell me if I am right or not first
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Last edited by tylerdurden; 03-07-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:43 AM
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fred bentivegna fred bentivegna is offline
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Default Extraordinarily confusing

A. What is an "inside" ball? B. What is the shot your are shooting, and what ball are you shooting at?

Beard

Plus, using an elevated cue I can put an amazing amount of throwing english on an object ball and hitting it almost full.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:59 AM
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Tyler, I'm not a bank player. IMO if you strike down on the CB
X should go close to the pocket.
Y looks like you're dealing with a kiss ?
Z is a very difficult shot.
Rod.
P.S. I'll try to post your layout if you like.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:31 PM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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I confused everybody, even myself perhaps. I could not find a pic of a table with no balls on it, so I used that picture. Really, try to picture none of those balls being there. The pockets don't need to be there either actually. The point of the X Y Z was to find out 1) which angle you can get the most spin on the ob with, and 2) what stroke you can get the most spin on the ob with. I was shooting at an ob ALWAYS located at point B, and I always hit point A with the ob, as "measured" by the chalk jumping off or not.

Bear in mind, i'm not even trying to make a bank there, just trying to see how far to the right (bottom right in pic) I can hit with differing strokes and cb positions with an IDENTICAL initial line of the ob (ie straight up the table). Oh god, I need a better diagram.

What I found was, I was getting the most spin on the object ball when the cb was near the Y point (ie about a half ball hit) and the stroke was a dead center ball. When I used inside (meaning left english in that diagram), I didn't get as much spin on the ob. The spin was "measured" by seeing how far to the right the ob banked off that first rail. The more to the right, the more spin. In essence, kisses or anything like that didn't matter one iota, I was strictly trying to see how far the ob would go to the right after hitting one rail, as I always hit the same spot on the end rail (ie "A").
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerdurden View Post
I confused everybody, even myself perhaps. I could not find a pic of a table with no balls on it, so I used that picture. Really, try to picture none of those balls being there. The pockets don't need to be there either actually. The point of the X Y Z was to find out 1) which angle you can get the most spin on the ob with, and 2) what stroke you can get the most spin on the ob with. I was shooting at an ob ALWAYS located at point B, and I always hit point A with the ob, as "measured" by the chalk jumping off or not.

Bear in mind, i'm not even trying to make a bank there, just trying to see how far to the right (bottom right in pic) I can hit with differing strokes and cb positions with an IDENTICAL initial line of the ob (ie straight up the table). Oh god, I need a better diagram.

What I found was, I was getting the most spin on the object ball when the cb was near the Y point (ie about a half ball hit) and the stroke was a dead center ball. When I used inside (meaning left english in that diagram), I didn't get as much spin on the ob. The spin was "measured" by seeing how far to the right the ob banked off that first rail. The more to the right, the more spin. In essence, kisses or anything like that didn't matter one iota, I was strictly trying to see how far the ob would go to the right after hitting one rail, as I always hit the same spot on the end rail (ie "A").
As I said above IMO X will turn the most. It looks like a true 1/2 ball hit. Y will turn also, but you''l get more collision English with X.
Rod.
P.S. Tyler, I'm not trying to argue about your results at all. I was only giving my opinion ( however feeble it may be)

Last edited by androd; 03-07-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:38 PM
Banks Banks is offline
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Yep, you got it, at least from what I know..
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:41 PM
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tyler
you will love this link
this is alittle more for your "first lesson question"
recommend an aspirin first (if you are not allergic
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin
dr.dave has more stuff than there is time to absorb!!!!

With shots like the one in the video above, throw and spin transfer are maximum at slower speeds with about 50% English (half maximum). However, at slow speeds, more of the transferred spin will wear off on the way to the rail, so the optimal speed (for the spin-transfer rebound-angle-change effect) will depend on conditions and the distance to the rail.


heres another video
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVB-30.htm


freddys first book goes into alot of this (and more)really well
http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?cat=4
of course johns dvd talks about this also
http://new2youq.ipower.com/cues/John%20Brumback.htm
got to be an equal opportunity endorser

Last edited by lll; 03-07-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-07-2012, 10:18 PM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lll View Post
tyler
you will love this link
this is alittle more for your "first lesson question"
recommend an aspirin first (if you are not allergic
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin
dr.dave has more stuff than there is time to absorb!!!!

With shots like the one in the video above, throw and spin transfer are maximum at slower speeds with about 50% English (half maximum). However, at slow speeds, more of the transferred spin will wear off on the way to the rail, so the optimal speed (for the spin-transfer rebound-angle-change effect) will depend on conditions and the distance to the rail.


heres another video
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_...ew/HSVB-30.htm


freddys first book goes into alot of this (and more)really well
http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?cat=4
of course johns dvd talks about this also
http://new2youq.ipower.com/cues/John%20Brumback.htm
got to be an equal opportunity endorser
Thanks for the posts all.

Larry, I have Beards book, and the results I got (however feeble they are), contrasted with what Beard said in his book, namely inside english you could spin the ball over more. On pages 33 & 35... the results I got indicated half ball hits put more (Androd says about 1/4 ball hits put more, which is what freddy says in his book), and that center ball puts more, not inside as indicated in the book. I posted because my results seemed so different.... I did double check it, but who knows, maybe I did something wrong. Yet, John mentioned something in the other thread about center actually being the one with the most torque ability (this mad sense with my results). So, maybe I can try to set it up again and see if Anrod and Freddy got me.... I probably just overlooked something.... it really did seem that ob was only going over far with 1/2 ball and center ball hit though.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:35 PM
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tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default For the sake of clarity, forget that first, ghetto diagram :)

Here is my experiment one more time for clarity.

The only way I was able to get the ob over anywhere near "C" was a dead centerball hit, and a half ball cut. Center ball with that fuller hit "Z" or the thinner hit "X" weren't getting there. Others say they can get over more with the thinner (1/4 or so hit), and perhaps that is true

Many of the variations were coming up at or near D, as I was mentioning, it was really pronounced (as in not even close) how much further over this center ball and 1/2 ball hit was taking it.

Anyway, forgive my incoherent ramblings
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