Rafael Martinez pulls a move

jtompilot · Aug 2, 2015

I'm watching the Hard Times final when Rafael pulls the I forgot to spot a ball and puts it up later when it blocks Rodney's shot.

OMG, can they get a commentator that actually knows the rules. Box is one of the worst commentators I've ever heard. That owed ball should have gone up after Rodney's shot.

sappo · Aug 2, 2015

I watched that yesterday. Rodney should also know the rules. pretty slick how RM remembered that he owed one after maybe 10 innings when that spotted ball benefited him.

tylerdurden · Aug 2, 2015

I saw that too. Great time to remember.

In my eyes I will give rm the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he really did just notice it. But yes it should still come up at a later point, not then. I blame Rodney there for being duped, but he also seems like the kinda guy that may have his game put off by confrontation so maybe it was the best move for him. I loved the way he played. Shot a few really bad shots but overall super solid thinking.

androd · Aug 2, 2015

everyone mentions Golf and Tennis, what about baseball, it's ok to steal and claim.

Cory in dc · Aug 2, 2015

Viewed most favorably, sometimes the table lines up where you think, "Man, wish I owed a ball right now" and then you realize, "Hey, I do owe a ball!"

Even so, that shouldn't work because of the sleeper rule:

"9.4 If any owed balls, or balls that have fallen into a neutral pocket are forgotten and later remembered, then instead of being spotted after the current shooter’s inning, they are spotted after the end of the next player’s inning, unless there are no balls left on the table, in which case they are all spotted immediately. In any case, any owed balls are not forgiven, but still must be paid."

Of course, it also says that rule can be ignored by mutual agreement. Sounds like Rodney didn't object.

jtompilot · Aug 2, 2015

Cory in dc said:
Viewed most favorably, sometimes the table lines up where you think, "Man, wish I owed a ball right now" and then you realize, "Hey, I do owe a ball!"

Even so, that shouldn't work because of the sleeper rule:

"9.4 If any owed balls, or balls that have fallen into a neutral pocket are forgotten and later remembered, then instead of being spotted after the current shooter’s inning, they are spotted after the end of the next player’s inning, unless there are no balls left on the table, in which case they are all spotted immediately. In any case, any owed balls are not forgiven, but still must be paid."

Of course, it also says that rule can be ignored by mutual agreement. Sounds like Rodney didn't object.

I don't think Rodney and most 9 ball players know 1P rules but Box should know and he was getting agitated with the chat room telling him he was wrong.

jrhendy · Aug 3, 2015

jtompilot said:
I don't think Rodney and most 9 ball players know 1P rules but Box should know and he was getting agitated with the chat room telling him he was wrong.

He (Box) is very opinionated, even if he is wrong as in this case. I understand that it is hard to get commentators and he is personable but I have to mute the sound sometimes. I have done a little commentary myself and am probably worse. You tend to think you have to talk all the time and analyze every shot.

Good one pocket commentators are hard to find. Billy I. set the bar too high.

keoneyo · Aug 3, 2015

Daniel the guy that runs POV has no idea of the nuances of One Pocket. He still has this guy Truman who is basically a 9 baller commentate. Then he let Melissa Herndon commentate. I love her but again she is a 9 ball player strictly.
I feel he has no respect for the game in itself

When he has true one pocket players like Frank the Barber, or Wayne, or Carla Johnson, Big Phil, Magdy the Chiropractor, Tang Hoa, John Schmidt, etc. Real California one pocket aficionado's that are available. He relies on his guys who he can banter with. Im not going to knock Box. He might be a nice guy but for me misses the depth and complexities of certain shots and situations and confuses it with his own terminology.

The Tier philosophy that he espouses sounds exotic but not to be confused with intelligence.

I do appreciate the streaming that Daniel does though. And that is why I time to time donate to the cause.

povpool · Aug 3, 2015

keoneyo said:
Daniel the guy that runs POV has no idea of the nuances of One Pocket. He still has this guy Truman who is basically a 9 baller commentate.. Then he let Melissa Herndon commentate. I love her but again she is a 9 ball player strictly.
I feel he has no respect for the game in itself

When he has true one pocket players like Frank the Barber, or Wayne, or Carla Johnson, Big Phil, Magdy the Chiropractor, Tang Hoa, John Schmidt, etc. Real California one pocket aficionado's that are available. He relies on his guys who he can banter with. Im not going to knock Box. He might be a nice guy but for me misses the depth and complexities of certain shots and situations and confuses it with his own terminology.

The Tier philosophy that he espouses sounds exotic but not to be confused with intelligence.

I do appreciate the streaming that Daniel does though. And that is why I time to time donate to the cause.

I'm sorry the commentary isn't ideal for you. We work very hard to make improvements to our programming all the time and I appreciate the constructive criticism. I'm not going to waste time with justifying my production decisions but i will keep your feelings in mind when it comes to making improvements.

I'm not really sure why you want to site Melissa Herndon though. She basically commentated one-pocket with me once about 3 years ago, which we are leaps and bounds from now. It came to my attention that she hates 1-hole, so can pretty much trust that I'll never have her in the box for it again.

Once again, thanks for your honesty and opinions - it can be difficult to cultivate commentary from some of those better players for many reasons. We actually wanted to put Schmitty in the box during a match, but because John's friend was playing, we didn't want the opponent to feel sharked by it. I can't remember who the players were now as it has slipped my mind.
--------------

As far as the OP - During the Rodney/Rafael match, I was also under the impression that the incoming player's inning had to be played out before spotting the 'sleeping' ball. Please understand that I'm actually in agreement that Box was incorrect. My mistake for not challenging Box on that rule, so the real error was mine for not standing up to him. This being said, I'm not going to shut him down and take him off because of this. He has actually cultivated a bit of an audience and many viewers like him.

tylerdurden · Aug 3, 2015

povpool said:
I'm sorry the commentary isn't ideal for you. We work very hard to make improvements to our programming all the time and I appreciate the constructive criticism. I'm not going to waste time with justifying my production decisions but i will keep your feelings in mind when it comes to making improvements.

I'm not really sure why you want to site Melissa Herndon though. She basically commentated one-pocket with me once about 3 years ago, which we are leaps and bounds from now. It came to my attention that she hates 1-hole, so can pretty much trust that I'll never have her in the box for it again.

Once again, thanks for your honesty and opinions - it can be difficult to cultivate commentary from some of those better players for many reasons. We actually wanted to put Schmitty in the box during a match, but because John's friend was playing, we didn't want the opponent to feel sharked by it. I can't remember who the players were now as it has slipped my mind.
--------------

As far as the OP - During the Rodney/Rafael match, I was also under the impression that the incoming player's inning had to be played out before spotting the 'sleeping' ball. Please understand that I'm actually in agreement that Box was incorrect. My mistake for not challenging Box on that rule, so the real error was mine for not standing up to him. This being said, I'm not going to shut him down and take him off because of this. He has actually cultivated a bit of an audience and many viewers like him.

You've already made me a fan, for both the great coverage and handling situations well like you've done here.

Keep up the great work.

keoneyo · Aug 3, 2015

Well Daniel I bring Melissa Herndon up because it has been your tendency to take commentating lightly. Having friends and business associates in instead of people who think that one pocket is an artistic and scientific game. We here take the game very seriously. Its almost a religion so to speak for some of us and devote many hours to it on a daily basis.
We seriously discuss, analyze, contradict, pose, the game in its entirety.
This is no personal attack on you. I totally appreciate what you do.

Its not necessary that you service me or any individual but the game itself demands quality analysis. If we expect the players to be the best so should we expect the journalistic aspects of it.

Let me add that Ms Herndon is a friend of mine and is a much loved person in my hood. And she is much able as a 9 ball commentator. To put her in a position where she has to tread waters that is not familiar to herself is a mistake by the powers that be.

Again thank you for all your hard work and endeavors.

Mkbtank · Aug 3, 2015

Rafael Martinez pulls a move

Thank you so much for the streams, Daniel! Your posts here were class IMO. While I am not a fan of Box either, I appreciate getting to watch any live action.

tylerdurden · Aug 3, 2015

keoneyo said:
Well Daniel I bring Melissa Herndon up because it has been your tendency to take commentating lightly. Having friends and business associates in instead of people who think that one pocket is an artistic and scientific game. We here take the game very seriously. Its almost a religion so to speak for some of us and devote many hours to it on a daily basis.
We seriously discuss, analyze, contradict, pose, the game in its entirety.
This is no personal attack on you. I totally appreciate what you do.

Its not necessary that you service me or any individual but the game itself demands quality analysis. If we expect the players to be the best so should we expect the journalistic aspects of it.

Let me add that Ms Herndon is a friend of mine and is a much loved person in my hood. And she is much able as a 9 ball commentator. To put her in a position where she has to tread waters that is not familiar to herself is a mistake by the powers that be.

Again thank you for all your hard work and endeavors.

That's pretty pretentious man. Just get over it and watch the pool.

keoneyo · Aug 3, 2015

Ok you're right. I apologize.
I woke up this morning and read it and thought the same thing.
Thanks.

senor · Aug 3, 2015

tylerdurden said:
That's pretty pretentious man. Just get over it and watch the pool.

The Dude abides...

baby huey · Aug 3, 2015

Most of us that play the game do know the rules quite well. I don't think there's too much value in scolding the commentator who made the error about spotting balls. Just say what you have to say and move on with it. I have seen some horrible decisions made by experienced referee's over the years and with our relatively new live streaming events, the announcer kinda becomes a defacto referee; At least to the audience. Daniel Busch and I were commenting on a nine ball match last year with one of my room's rising stars and a big controversy came up over the score. The one player forgot to mark his score and we in the booth slept it as well. Boy did that ever create a controversy about cheating, bad decisions and rule interpretations. In the end, it is the players responsibility to protect him/herself without a referee present. Rodney is responsible for his game and should know about the spotted ball rule and if he didn't know ask the tournament director.

jtompilot · Aug 3, 2015

Hey Daniel, I want to let you know that I really like what you do for pool. I don't know if you remember me but we chatted a little bit at Hardtimes when Efren and one of the Phoenix guys were gambling.

Sorry to rant about Box but I felt I needed to let you know how I feel about it. I'll be a little more liberal with mute.

I should also send you a little something
Money sent

Jim

jtompilot · Aug 3, 2015

jerry matchin said:
Most of us that play the game do know the rules quite well. I don't think there's too much value in scolding the commentator who made the error about spotting balls. Just say what you have to say and move on with it. I have seen some horrible decisions made by experienced referee's over the years and with our relatively new live streaming events, the announcer kinda becomes a defacto referee; At least to the audience. Daniel Busch and I were commenting on a nine ball match last year with one of my room's rising stars and a big controversy came up over the score. The one player forgot to mark his score and we in the booth slept it as well. Boy did that ever create a controversy about cheating, bad decisions and rule interpretations. In the end, it is the players responsibility to protect him/herself without a referee present. Rodney is responsible for his game and should know about the spotted ball rule and if he didn't know ask the tournament director.

I understand what your saying, but how do think we improve? We learn a lot over the years from mistakes we make. God knows I'm not perfect, I make plenty of mistakes. I try to learn and understand them. Box makes lots of mistakes, I hope he also learns from them.

jrhendy · Aug 3, 2015

jtompilot said:
I understand what your saying, but how do think we improve? We learn a lot over the years from mistakes we make. God knows I'm not perfect, I make plenty of mistakes. I try to learn and understand them. Box makes lots of mistakes, I hope he also learns from them.

I have watched quite a few streams that Daniel at POV puts on and Box has been a commentator. We are all one pocket addicts and you can tell his love for the game from his commentary in the booth. We are lucky to have it to watch and even complain about.

I have complained myself, but would rather have a little overboard commentary than none at all. When I get too tired of it I mute it, but I always turn it back on.

You never know what you might miss.

gulfportdoc · Aug 3, 2015

I too watched the game in question. And I must say that it was nice to be able to watch it! POV brings us a very good service.

There's little question in my mind that Martinez pulled a move. It's possible, but not likely that he didn't. He's played a ton of 1P, so he surely knows the rules. Likewise Morris ought to know them as well, but as a relative novice, he probably didn't. Since nothing was said, Martinez probably was going to let the slept ball ride, but a good opportunity to suddenly remember that he owed a ball presented itself.

Daniel did raise the question later-- whether Martinez owed a ball from his foul. But on the issue of the play by play commentator insisting upon erroneously spotting the ball out of turn: it wasn't just that he was wrong, it's that he was adamant about it, repeating it several times in an insistent tone of voice, even coming back to the subject-- despite the situation that reportedly everyone in the chat was trying to tell him the rule.

Oh well, we all make mistakes. Hell, I even made one 5-6 years ago....

~Doc

Rafael Martinez pulls a move

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