Professional Sport...I Doubt It

As long as incidents like this occur in a pro tournament and there is no foul then this sport will never go anywhere.

Cliff Joyner playing Tony Mougey at the 2010 DCC.

Cliff, in placing the bridge, accidently hits the 10 ball. Tony moves it back. Then Cliff hits the 1 ball with the bridge. Tony gets the ref over to ask a few questions and replaces the 1 ball also.





Finally, after all this distraction, Cliff finally places the bridge on the table and cuts the 13 in his pocket AND hits the 1 ball when raising the bridge off the table.



Fate has a way of making us all pay for our sins though usually not immediately. Cliff hits the side-pocket tit and goes cross-side for the scratch



To be clear:

Cliff hit the 10 ball and Tony replaced it.
Cliff hit the 1 ball and Tony replaced it.
Cliff shot the 13 and hit the 1 ball again when raising the bridge up on the shot.

Is there any other sport or game where a player can move balls or game pieces of any kind and it's not a foul or some type infraction?

D.C.C. needs to be ALL balls touched are fouls, it's the only way to ever have pool be considered a professional sport.

14.1 rules count all balls touched as fouls and to my knowledge it always has. No matter what you think of 14.1 I always remember the professionalism of the game particularly when the U.S. Open was played.

Dennis

D.C.C. needs to be ALL balls touched are fouls, it's the only way to ever have pool be considered a professional sport.

14.1 rules count all balls touched as fouls and to my knowledge it always has. No matter what you think of 14.1 I always remember the professionalism of the game particularly when the U.S. Open was played.

Dennis

I couldn't agree more!

Bill Stroud

It's too hard Daddy, it's just too hard

It's too hard Daddy, it's just too hard

There are existing rules that cover this but in modern American tournaments it's become relatively standard to play "cue ball fouls only". I suppose because it's just too hard to follow the actual rules.

From the WPA rule book:

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

ETA: The one pocket.org rules state that the WPA rules apply unless specifically contradicted---and this rule IS contradicted.

in snooker when you fuk up, its gonna cost a minimum of four....

if a foul were to cost a ball, bet he'd been a lot more coordinated with the ladies aid.

In this case it could very well be a foul because it could be argued that the cue ball went past to where the one was prior to being moved by the rake. By BIH rules this would be considered a foul. In the past we played it was a foul when any ball was moved.

Frank Almanza said:

In this case it could very well be a foul because it could be argued that the cue ball went past to where the one was prior to being moved by the rake. By BIH rules this would be considered a foul. In the past we played it was a foul when any ball was moved.

Click to expand...

Frank,

It was a moot point because Cliff scratched in a pocket anyway but the ref did come into the booth and explain the rules. He said if the moved ball didn't interfere with the shot then it was not a foul. He said if only one ball had been moved at a time it was not a foul. He said if two balls had been moved at the same time it would have been a foul.

What do you mean by BIH rules?

Dennis

Cary said:

There are existing rules that cover this but in modern American tournaments it's become relatively standard to play "cue ball fouls only". I suppose because it's just too hard to follow the actual rules.

From the WPA rule book:

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

ETA: The one pocket.org rules state that the WPA rules apply unless specifically contradicted---and this rule IS contradicted.

Click to expand...

Also from their "regulations":

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

Click to expand...

The USA in all its wisdom has (with the exception of 14.1) been a Cue Ball only foul game.

The rest of the world plays ALL BALL FOULS. That being said, to play ALL BALL FOULS, the matches have to be REFEREED. Trained and tested Refs are very difficult to find. There maybe less than 20 in the USA.

Most pool players think they know the rules. If they do know the rules, why not volunteer to ref matches? If you must be paid for your services, then you should at least know the rules.

Seems like this forum has variations of rules for either gambling or tournament play.

Tough call, but if pool (aka Pocket Billiards) is to gain some respectability, a higher level of sportsmanship and qualified Refs might be a good starting direction.

I dont think having a penalty for touching an object ball would in any way "elevate" the game of pool. The current rule works well and the player who moves an object ball is at risk, in that his opponent has the option of leaving that ball where it was moved to or having it replaced to is original position. The opponent's decision can dramatically affect the game.

I think the example in this case is very unique and not reflective of the norm when talking about moving an object ball in one pocket.

I mean we could look at all the rules and suggest changes, for example having to call your shot before shooting, but what would those changes do except change the great game we all love. keith

Personally, I have serious concerns about trying to call all object ball contacts as fouls without impartial referees. It comes from my own local experience in the local league/tournaments that for many years were called that way. There are simply way too many players that will "see something" that nobody else sees when their opponent happens to be getting the best of them, or the reverse, where the shooter will go ballistic that they did NOT touch a ball. I've seen and faded both of these problems way too many times.

Of course, with a referee, then I have no problem with the rule -- as long as the refs are paying attention For example, they could have easily imposed the stricter rule for the semifinals and finals at the US Open One Pocket because there was only one match going on at a time and there was an official on hand -- but they didn't. I'd favor the rule if ref's are available, but you have to have a dedicated ref available for the whole match and in general, that's not going to be likely very often (except finals and near finals when tournaments come down to single matches at a time).

I'm wondering about an alternative something like this:

One warning for touch fouls prior to the release of the shot
1. Maintain the current rule for "cue ball fouls only" for the first ball contact on any shot before the shot is released.
2. If there is any contact before the shot, any moved ball is restored and the player is warned by the opponent, who then calls over a referee (or neutral party to act in that authority) to observe the shot. Any further contact on that shot that is observed by the acting referee (even if it is contact with a different ball) is a foul (i.e. all ball fouls after the warning).
3. If any ball is clearly contacted during or after the release of the shot, that is a foul right away -- no warning. However, it is the opponent's responsibility to call a referee (or neutral observer) if they anticipate a close call. If no referee is called over and the contact is disputed and no referee or neutral observer can verify that any illegal contact actually occurred, then the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.


That is my compromise suggestion to avoid overtaxing referees and to minimize arguments and phoney calls (as long as players can understand the rules, lol).

Cowboy Dennis said:

Frank,

It was a moot point because Cliff scratched in a pocket anyway but the ref did come into the booth and explain the rules. He said if the moved ball didn't interfere with the shot then it was not a foul. He said if only one ball had been moved at a time it was not a foul. He said if two balls had been moved at the same time it would have been a foul.

What do you mean by BIH rules?

Dennis

Click to expand...

Did I say that? I was in a hurry when I wrote that. (wife was waiting for me at the front door to go shopping) What I meant to say was that in games that have the ball in hand rule it would be a foul, in reference to the movement of the one ball. Of course in one pocket I believe it still should be a foul but with the penalty of losing a ball.

Frank Almanza said:

Did I say that? I was in a hurry when I wrote that. (wife was waiting for me at the front door to go shopping) What I meant to say was that in games that have the ball in hand rule it would be a foul, in reference to the movement of the one ball. Of course in one pocket I believe it still should be a foul but with the penalty of losing a ball.

Click to expand...

That'll excuse any mistakes. I thought maybe they had some new tournament rule or something.

Dennis