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  #1  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:15 AM
evergruven evergruven is offline
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Default one pocket rules question

first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"...any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted."

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."

if a player scratches and pockets the opponent's ball,
why not let the object ball stay down? why spot?

cheers-
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  #2  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:45 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"...any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted."

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."

if a player scratches and pockets the opponent's ball,
why not let the object ball stay down? why spot?

cheers-
That would be reasonable, but I'm guessing that in the early days of one pocket (it isn't very old) there wasn't a lot of thinking that went beyond, "Balls pocketed on fouls are spotted."

More recently, an exception was carved out to do it the way you suggest when balls are pocketed for the opponent on shots that include any foul other than CB in pocket or ball off the table. The only examples I can think of are touching, pushing or double-hitting fouls, which could be done intentionally to prevent the opponent from keeping a ball you wanted to clear from his pocket but couldn't conveniently follow in or jump off the table, like when you have to defensively kick to make a ball hanging in his pocket jaws.

The most extreme example of fouling one of those ways would be to just reach out with your hand and touch a ball to create the foul. To be clear, since you say you are new to the game, opponent does keep the ball you make in his pocket if you foul any way other than CB pocket scratch or ball off the table.

By the way, Welcome aboard, (and I like your screen name.)
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  #3  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:01 AM
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Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"...any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted."

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."

if a player scratches and pockets the opponent's ball,
why not let the object ball stay down? why spot?


cheers-
evergruven.....grateful dead fan?

anyway....something you mostly see at the end game. and there is a skill to it (especially when they lay funny). typically not done by accident - a nuance within the game.

for example, if you and your opponent are both on 7 and he has a ball deep in the jaws of his pocket, common strategy is to follow it in (or jump whitey off the table), now 2 balls spot (one of yours comes up as well as the pocketed ball) - now he needs 1 and you need them both.

lots of cool shots you can hit with BIH in the kitchen (in any number of exponential situations).

lots of 1pocket vides on youtube, most guys willing to play cheap.

take care.

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  #4  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:44 AM
darmoose darmoose is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"...any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted."

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."

if a player scratches and pockets the opponent's ball,
why not let the object ball stay down? why spot?

cheers-

It was done to lengthen the game. Many early players were complaining that the game was going too fast to fully enjoy.
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  #5  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:11 AM
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unoperro unoperro is offline
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Originally Posted by darmoose View Post
It was done to lengthen the game. Many early players were complaining that the game was going too fast to fully enjoy.
Funny how there is often a bit of skill/knowledge involved

Ever play a noobie who can't follow a ball in? And I mean a good player new to 1pkt.
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  #6  
Old 08-09-2019, 12:45 PM
12squared 12squared is online now
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Originally Posted by darmoose View Post
It was done to lengthen the game. Many early players were complaining that the game was going too fast to fully enjoy.
O. M. G. I spit out my coffee (and I don't even drink coffee). hahahahaha

But to answer the original poster's (evergruven) question to the best of my ability, when you scratch it is not a legal stroke so it's the end of your inning and anything made in any pocket including yours and your oppontent's gets spotted, plus the one you would owe if you have balls to spot.

welcome to the madness

Dave
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  #7  
Old 08-09-2019, 12:47 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Miller explained the 'why' quite nicely. Other than a pocket scratch or cb jumped, the only other time an opponents ball would be spotted is if more than one ball is pocketed in error in the opponents pocket. When once realized then all balls spot except for the first ball, for it counts. *Unless, the entire game is played in error then the game stands as a win for the player who pockets the game winning ball in error.*

Another interesting scenario when going back to the roots of OP and all other games; when an object ball is jumped off the table it is not a foul. All games were played this way for eons - decades.

Therefore how did it effect one pocket. Well, when an object ball was close to the hole and hard to dig out, one could simply jump it off the table, and it would spot, no foul and only one ball would spot. What does this mean, well it is a lot easier to deal with one ball spotted versus two balls. So the opponent still maintains the advantage he once had, and this is pretty significant @ 7-7.

This bygone rule gave the shooter @ 7-7 lets say for example: the option to just jump the ob or to jump both the ob and cb, and this is significant as to whether you want 1 ball to spot or 2 balls to spot, and if you also wanted to take a foul which would put you on 2 balls needed to win the game instead of 1. This old bygone rule still does not effect current rules of either jumping the cb or following in the ob with the cb scratch.

So with this said; IMO OP should be played as it use to be played, whereas it is not a foul to jump the ob, because it really does not effect the game but does add a significant strategy twist!

Somewhere along in the late 70's I assume, the long standing object ball being jumped got changed to being a foul. Billiard Congress of America changed presidents like we change shirts, and with that came rule changes, and new rule committee members. Welcome to OP.org! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 08-09-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:07 PM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"...any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted."

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."

if a player scratches and pockets the opponent's ball,
why not let the object ball stay down? why spot?

cheers-
I don’t know the true factual answer to your question, but what I do know is that One Pocket has a long history as a money game — often played out between two very experienced money players. Given that there might be rather meaningful money consequences, the consensus of players back in the day probably simply did not want to lose their money that way, so they agreed on this rule.

The first written rules for One Pocket were compiled for the Jansco Brothers’ Johnston City tournament in 1961 and that tournament — even though the first year was only 14 players — they all had LOTS of One Pocket experience, so I’m going to speculate that is the way those guys preferred to play.

So prior to 1961 you can imagine asking your opponent before a big game:

Whole ball or base of ball?
Scratch pocketing opponent’s ball the ball gets spotted or stays down and counts?

Just like today you have to ask, Ball on a break rerack or keep shooting?

This is how rules evolve — we are watching it now before our very eyes
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  #9  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:34 AM
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levartze levartze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
first post, noob to the game..nice to be here

"Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table."
I've seen a ball just hanging on the edge, drops into the pocket before the shooting player made a shot from the floor vibrating; the ball was brought back up and put back to where it was before it fell into the pocket.
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  #10  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:41 AM
evergruven evergruven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
evergruven.....grateful dead fan?

anyway....something you mostly see at the end game. and there is a skill to it (especially when they lay funny). typically not done by accident - a nuance within the game.

for example, if you and your opponent are both on 7 and he has a ball deep in the jaws of his pocket, common strategy is to follow it in (or jump whitey off the table), now 2 balls spot (one of yours comes up as well as the pocketed ball) - now he needs 1 and you need them both.

lots of cool shots you can hit with BIH in the kitchen (in any number of exponential situations).

lots of 1pocket vides on youtube, most guys willing to play cheap.

take care.

hey miller,

I'm no 'head, but I dig the dead, and a lot of music in general.

jumping the cue off the table intentionally is in an interesting idea-
I could see there being an art to scratching intentionally.
will keep an open mind for this and look out for examples in the real world-

thanks all for the replies and welcoming vibes.
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