Did the Dennis Victory Settle a Age Old 1P Debate?

phil dade

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I almost posted my thoughts the other day, but I don't know so much after watching this game over 50 years. However, to Rob's point, Scott never adjusted. In football or other sports, you adjust based on what is occurring. Ever watch a game shift after halftime?

Scott is Power One Pocket, only no one is overpowering Dennis. The first time Dennis blew out from no where, Scott needed to adjust and realize he was snake handling with the most deadly snake. One bite and you are done.

Once Scott struck ahead, even marginally, he should have gone in to full protect so as not to give anything. I saw a match a long time ago, SJD beat Cliff Joyner and SJD simply never left a shot. He also hardly ever shot. This maybe extreme but when Scott got up a few balls early, had he adopted a different approach, who knows? Certainly he would have done better. I will not go so far to marginalize Dennis's performance which was one of the best I have ever seen.
 

onepockethacker

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Dennis is a complete player. His moving has improved by leaps and bounds over last year. We all knew he was the better shot maker. But what I saw was how effortlessly he ran out from ANYWHERE. Up table, down table, it didn't matter. He didn't just make the balls; he ran out even when balls were seemingly out of play. His banking was about as good as it gets.

Scott, on the other hand, didn't shoot particularly poorly. His presumed edge in knowledge did not show up. He made poor decisions when he had big leads. He lost by my count four games where he was up 7-0. He lost another game when he missed the seven ball straight in for his winner. So that might have accounted for half the difference in the game. but Dennis won by 11. If Scott wins those games, it's closer, but he still loses, in my opinion.

Had Frost kept his leads in those games where he was way ahead, he would have made it competitive, but in my opinion, Dennis was still the better player and would have won. Dennis held up under the pressure and Frost..well you call it.

Remember each game is a two game swing.. you named 5 games off the top of your head real quick.. So instead of 40 29 it would be 35 34...
 

onepockethacker

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By the way Im not trying to knock Scott here. I like Scott and both of these guys play way better than I ever did. Im just trying to give a real no holds barred opinion of what really did Scott in.... You see If Scott would have won all those games he had the big leads and still lost the match then you can say if he pocketed better here and there he would have won... But when you blow those games with the leads that is what really did him in.
 

OneRock

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Shooting vs. Moving?

Shooting vs. Moving?

Given that the best move in 1-Pocket is 8 and out, a player's got to be able to move and shoot in order to win. Moving won't do you any good if you can't shoot. The whole purpose behind moving is so you can shoot when it's time.

Frost vs. Orcollo - They both played great, even though I heard Scott didn't have enough time to prep for the match because he's busy with his new poolroom. I don't know if that's true or not. At this play caliber, the player who commits fewer mistakes and capitalizes more on the other guy's mistakes usually wins. That's precisely what happened in this match. I believe Scott is capable of winning this match if it goes down again.
 

Jeff sparks

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Jeff its real simple... Scott has zero chance of winning getting the 8 and 9 from Dennis playing 10 ball.. so if pocketing and cue ball control were the deciding factors then why did they play the match? What won the match was Dennis moves A LOT better than people thought he did..AND amazingly you guys watched it for 4 days and still dont realize it

Ok, I never underestimated Dennis's moving ability, or his CB control, in fact I recognized that fact and posted it in other threads months ago, that his moving game was vastly improved and he was a force to be dealt with back then... He has improved since then, but his skills in that area aren't better than Scott's. He moves great and has a great CB...no doubt about it...

IMO, long races and ahead matches are primarily decided by breaking down your opponent mentally... When you break down a player, he begins to make errors, in judgement, in missed shots, in all areas of the game.. Dennis's victory in this match was no doubt a combination of his improved moving ability and impeccable CB control, but ultimately it was Dennis's shot making ability that broke Scott down and caused him to play poorly in all areas of his game...

This particular thread we are posting in asks the age old about Shooter vs. Mover... Did this settle the issue once and for all? Frankly I don't see that it settled anything forever, this match was decided by a combination of all the skills that each player brought to the table and the physical and mental makeup of both the players... IMHO, what brought Scott to his knees and broke him down mentally was mostly Dennis's bringing the heat on his shot making...

Just for arguments sake, let's assume they were a dead heat on moving during the match, although it's a fact that Scott beat Dennis to the shot more often...
So, if that's true, what decided the match?
 

LSJohn

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What won the match was Dennis moves A LOT better than people thought he did..

That's what let his backers get the action, because Scott's backers were apparently as unaware of that as we were. :D

His analysis, shot choices and CB control were as impressive as his pocketing. Scott was the one who made the mental errors.

Dennis/Alex could be epic. (But it might have to be race-to-5 each day. :p )
 

1pwannabe

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Our 1P group at the pool room discussed this match a lot over the last few days while we watched it. I asked the simple question, "Did Scott do anything better than Dennis?" They all immediately agreed that Scott beat Dennis to the shot most of the time, which to me translates to "moving". But when you get your first shot, 8 and out is required at this level of play to win and that's where Scott seems to have failed. A dozen 8 and outs early on by Scott would have made Dennis less aggressive and confident in his shot making ability...IMHO
 

sneakynito

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Shooter vs Mover, which one is more important overall for winning.

Did this match settle this debate once and for all?
I don't think this match helped with the debate.
I thought Orcollo went move for move with Scott. That, with Scott's mistakes, and Orcollo's excellent shot making, gave Orcollo this match. IMHO
 

onepockethacker

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Ok, I never underestimated Dennis's moving ability, or his CB control, in fact I recognized that fact and posted it in other threads months ago, that his moving game was vastly improved and he was a force to be dealt with back then... He has improved since then, but his skills in that area aren't better than Scott's. He moves great and has a great CB...no doubt about it...

IMO, long races and ahead matches are primarily decided by breaking down your opponent mentally... When you break down a player, he begins to make errors, in judgement, in missed shots, in all areas of the game.. Dennis's victory in this match was no doubt a combination of his improved moving ability and impeccable CB control, but ultimately it was Dennis's shot making ability that broke Scott down and caused him to play poorly in all areas of his game...

This particular thread we are posting in asks the age old about Shooter vs. Mover... Did this settle the issue once and for all? Frankly I don't see that it settled anything forever, this match was decided by a combination of all the skills that each player brought to the table and the physical and mental makeup of both the players... IMHO, what brought Scott to his knees and broke him down mentally was mostly Dennis's bringing the heat on his shot making...

Just for arguments sake, let's assume they were a dead heat on moving during the match, although it's a fact that Scott beat Dennis to the shot more often...
So, if that's true, what decided the match?

Jeff there are different parts of moving, there is beating your opponent to the shot like you refer to but where is it written that when u get the first shot you are going to run 8 and out everytime...you made my point for me, Scott is the better mover going into the match as Dennis was the better shooter... Scott was up 7 0 and he lost 4 times like that and u think he moved well? You see Jeff that is the other and more important part of moving...when you have games under control and wrapped up and you fumble them away.. you are saying that Dennis won because his shot making? Did you think he was going to shoot them into the rails on a table that was playing like buckets? Before the match the people that liked Scott to win were picking him because of his moving not his pocketing and running balls..they thought he would beat dennis to the first shot but they also figured he would win all the games he had big leads in by protecting and playing the score... just like the people that picked dennis did so because they were counting on his shot making and ball running.... so now ask yourself which player performed their strength better and which players strength let them down?
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Yep...points being made by Rob are points that I posted up 3 days ago in these two posts ----->

and the most surprising and damaging of those errors, both yesterday and today, has been bad decisions, and having a bad cueball on basic safeties in key spots - shooting them too soft, too hard, off angle, scratching in pockets, etc...never before seen this lack of cueball control from Scott.


I think the analysis by everyone in this thread has been spot on...I'll just add one thing...

We've all praised Dennis's shooting, execution and demeanor...but his moving is totally underrated...2-3 years ago he still didn't know the game that well, but he does now - he's now moving very well...in this match with Scott for example, he's making very few wrong moves.

- Ghost
 
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onepockethacker

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Here's another way to look at it. Let's say Scott both moved and shot poorly..which one do you think he should be more disappointed in? If you say shooting then why we're we calling him the mover going into the match?
 

baby huey

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If Scott had just won the games he was up 7/1 or 6/1 then the match would have gone down to the wire. I watched him give it up way too many times. In football we call it "prevent defense." So Scotts prevent defense failed poorly because he couldn't make the game ball and he had so many chances to do so. Scott clearly got the early lead in most games but couldn't hold it. This is very unusual for a top rated player not to close out these games. I don't pretend to really know the answer but some of Scotts demise has to be what was going on in his head. Was it fear, lack of confidence or dogging it or perhaps his failure to adjust his end game strategy at the right time and only Scott can answer that question? Scotts game may be best suited to giving lessor players huge spots and winning. I remember him playing Dippy Dave in DCC a few years ago something like 17 to 5 and winning easily. I don't think Dennis has the game to win in those situations but heads up a completely different story line. So in the end congrats to Dennis who played some of the best pool I have ever seen. He won shooting at his hole and played fearlessly and flawlessly. I like Dennis over Alex at this point and I can't think of anyone who can beat him heads up right now.
 

BRLongArm

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Dennis never gave up on a game when he was down. His mental toughness was impressive. He hung around and waited for a chance and was rewarded four times when Scott was a 6-1 favorite or more with a 7-0 lead. That breaks a man down.
 

Jeff sparks

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By the way Im not trying to knock Scott here. I like Scott and both of these guys play way better than I ever did. Im just trying to give a real no holds barred opinion of what really did Scott in.... You see If Scott would have won all those games he had the big leads and still lost the match then you can say if he pocketed better here and there he would have won... But when you blow those games with the leads that is what really did him in.

If the dog hadn't stopped to take a s__t he would have caught the rabbit!!!

He lost all those games because of mental errors, Dennis's flawless defense, Dennis's ability to run out from anywhere, and Scotts inability to pocket the game winning ball!! He had shots to make his game ball in ever one of those games, sometimes multiple shots...why did he miss those shots, The pressure of knowing the capabilities of the guy holding the other cue stick, that's why...
 

Jeff sparks

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Jeff there are different parts of moving, there is beating your opponent to the shot like you refer to but where is it written that when u get the first shot you are going to run 8 and out everytime...you made my point for me, Scott is the better mover going into the match as Dennis was the better shooter... Scott was up 7 0 and he lost 4 times like that and u think he moved well? You see Jeff that is the other and more important part of moving...when you have games under control and wrapped up and you fumble them away.. you are saying that Dennis won because his shot making? Did you think he was going to shoot them into the rails on a table that was playing like buckets? Before the match the people that liked Scott to win were picking him because of his moving not his pocketing and running balls..they thought he would beat dennis to the first shot but they also figured he would win all the games he had big leads in by protecting and playing the score... just like the people that picked dennis did so because they were counting on his shot making and ball running.... so now ask yourself which player performed their strength better and which players strength let them down?

Ok so why did Scott's strength let him down, that's obviously what you are asking? What in your opinion caused Scott to go off the air and fumble away those leads in the games you are talking about? Was it a combination of brain farts, or pressure of knowing how embarrassing it would be to lose having a big lead, or what?

Personally I think it was a combination of his breakdown mentally, his inability to pocket the game winning ball, and that little thing called pressure that was being applied both defensively and offensively by Dennis during the whole match...
 

darmoose

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Ok so why did Scott's strength let him down, that's obviously what you are asking? What in your opinion caused Scott to go off the air and fumble away those leads in the games you are talking about? Was it a combination of brain farts, or pressure of knowing how embarrassing it would be to lose having a big lead, or what?

Personally I think it was a combination of his breakdown mentally, his inability to pocket the game winning ball, and that little thing called pressure that was being applied both defensively and offensively by Dennis during the whole match...

Jeff

IMHO.....EGO

Ego is somewhat understandable except when there's $200k on the line.:sorry
 

Jeff sparks

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Jeff

IMHO.....EGO

Ego is somewhat understandable except when there's $200k on the
line.:sorry

He's certainly got a big ego, no question about it...
But hey, he's deserving of it in many ways, after all, he is still a top 5 one pocket player in the world...

His ego could very well be his downfall, he hangs it out there in every big time match and lately ( with Alex and now Dennis ) he's been getting it crushed... The hype would be understandable if he was campaigning for a monster gate on PPV or trying to sell tv rights for commercials, but he hangs it out there as braggadocio, leaving himself open and vulnerable... I guess he's just stroking his ego, trying to get himself pumped up for the match... News flash... It ain't workin...

The Filipino players don't brag, they all seem to behave in a humble and modest fashion, both before a match and after... Kinda makes you think they know something you don't!!! I like that approach better... Let the cue do the talking...

Looking forward to meeting you in Chicago, your posts are always clear and precise and to the point... Keep it up, I enjoy reading them...:)

Golf on the 6 x 12.... Sounds like fun...:D
 

LSJohn

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playing Dippy Dave in DCC a few years ago something like 17 to 5 and winning easily. I don't think Dennis has the game to win in those situations

I'm not sure I know what you're saying, but I watched Dennis giving 13-3 for 10K to a player that I'd guess is about Mitch's speed. Dennis lost but it was a dog fight.
 

darmoose

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He's certainly got a big ego, no question about it...
But hey, he's deserving of it in many ways, after all, he is still a top 5 one pocket player in the world...

His ego could very well be his downfall, he hangs it out there in every big time match and lately ( with Alex and now Dennis ) he's been getting it crushed... The hype would be understandable if he was campaigning for a monster gate on PPV or trying to sell tv rights for commercials, but he hangs it out there as braggadocio, leaving himself open and vulnerable... I guess he's just stroking his ego, trying to get himself pumped up for the match... News flash... It ain't workin...

The Filipino players don't brag, they all seem to behave in a humble and modest fashion, both before a match and after... Kinda makes you think they know something you don't!!! I like that approach better... Let the cue do the talking...

Looking forward to meeting you in Chicago, your posts are always clear and precise and to the point... Keep it up, I enjoy reading them...:)

Golf on the 6 x 12.... Sounds like fun...:D

Thanks Jeff, back at ya...

I am not a great player by any means, just an interested student trying to compensate for lack of natural talent. I look forward to going to Chicago too, and meeting everyone, including you. I have family there and haven't been back to Chicago in about twenty years.

Just to clarify what I mean by Scotts ego cost him many games and the match, I don't mean his pregame ego.I mean when he had a big lead and he faced a choice of shooting a shot or locking down the game, too often he took the shot. I think he was saying to himself, how do I look if I don't shoot this duck, especially with Dennis making shots from everywhere and nowhere.

He forgot Mitch's favorite reminder...play the score, and not try to be a hero.

JMHO
 
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