Alternatives to Double Elimination format

Island Drive · Mar 3, 2019

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Well put, I agree Hendy is not out of stroke, but he was one of the first to support RR play, and I believe the first to post support of it on the RR MOT Thread, pg. 17. Henry's post on the MOT RR Thread went about like this; I will like any format that I do not have to wait around to play. John H. and Henry's posts are my two favorites, now yours is included, great response! Whitey

Thx Whitey....I just reached out to Robert Turner who runs Run the Bicycle Club Casino Los Angeles. I told em about the round robin format and wanted his opinions. I look forward to his response. If anyone can give positive input on something to do with numbers/players/RR etc he may be the guy.

LSJohn · Mar 3, 2019

youngstownkid;253232 chip tourneys always run smoothly. [/QUOTE said:
I think I get the idea. Everybody gets all the chips they need to play when it's their turn, but whoever finishes with the most chips wins (or several qualify for finals, or whatever) right?

Sounds like fun, but the better you play the more you get to play, which isn't unfair, but I wouldn't choose it because I'm below average on any 1P .org list.

Sounds like your idea of limiting the number of games a player could hold a table for would help, I'd even say it would solve my problem if the limit were 2 (but I'm betting that a vote would land us on 3.)

LSJohn · Mar 3, 2019

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
I do not believe the MOT is just a get together to play only a tournament.

I think your view is in the majority, but I look at it the other way. If the idea is to get together to socialize and match up, there's no need for 1pOrg to be involved in planning or producing or officiating.

I'l bet you or any number of others could organize a "match-up" get-together and find quite a bit of interest, leaving out those of us that prefer to limit our losses to entry, green fees, travel, food and lodging. I'll spend $700-800 in Philly without matching up, and that's plenty for me. (Not everyone has as solid an expectation of the outcome of matching up as I do

:frus )

(Yeah, yeah, I know, about 2 dozen people are saying, "Tough s**t, play better.) :heh:

crabbcatjohn · Mar 3, 2019

LSJohn said:
I think your view is in the majority, but I look at it the other way. If the idea is to get together to socialize and match up, there's no need for 1pOrg to be involved in planning or producing or officiating.

I'l bet you or any number of others could organize a "match-up" get-together and find quite a bit of interest, leaving out those of us that prefer to limit our losses to entry, green fees, travel, food and lodging. I'll spend $700-800 in Philly without matching up, and that's plenty for me. (Not everyone has as solid an expectation of the outcome of matching up as I do :frus )

(Yeah, yeah, I know, about 2 dozen people are saying, "Tough s**t, play better.) :heh:

It's my opinion that the majority of us do enjoy matching up with each other whether it be for the win loss side of a tournament, 10-20 a game, a captains table or high stakes. In my view playing a bunch of extra matches that the outcome makes no difference makes no sense while forcing those of us that like the outcome of a game to actually mean something play those "free" matches. After all onepocket is a gambling game. I for one dont go to the pool room looking to play a someone for free...no one is forcing anyone to match up after they are out of a tournament and the non gamblers would be free to play all they want with each other. Your guys view is everybody gets to play more. My view is your trying to force better players to play you for free.

Island Drive · Mar 3, 2019

crabbcatjohn said:
It's my opinion that the majority of us do enjoy matching up with each other whether it be for the win loss side of a tournament, 10-20 a game, a captains table or high stakes. In my view playing a bunch of extra matches that the outcome makes no difference makes no sense while forcing those of us that like the outcome of a game to actually mean something play those "free" matches. After all onepocket is a gambling game. I for one dont go to the pool room looking to play a someone for free...no one is forcing anyone to match up after they are out of a tournament and the non gamblers would be free to play all they want with each other. Your guys view is everybody gets to play more. My view is your trying to force better players to play you for free.

"I told yah, we don't have Ketchup''....we have mustard.

crabbcatjohn · Mar 3, 2019

Sorry, I only got Ketsup, carry on....

Island Drive · Mar 3, 2019

crabbcatjohn said:
Sorry, I only got Ketsup, carry on....

Oops;
That Ketchup....was meant for LS, he told us in Houston at breakfast about getting Chile in KC I think, and that joke was '' funny as could be''.

Ya had to of been there.

LSJohn · Mar 3, 2019

Island Drive said:
"I told yah, we don't have Ketchup''....we have mustard.

I didn't remember telling you, but I figured that MUST be what you were getting at.

LSJohn · Mar 3, 2019

crabbcatjohn said:
It's my opinion that the majority of us do enjoy matching up with each other whether it be for the win loss side of a tournament, 10-20 a game, a captains table or high stakes.

I think you're probably right.

your trying to force better players to play you for free.

**sigh**

What I'm doing is expressing what I'd prefer, and why. Who am I forcing? Looks to me that you're wanting to use the Members Only Tournament to get me to either match up or GTF out of the way after I donate my $100.

I haven't figured out what part of my $700-800 expenses and my $100 entry fee and my green fee is the "free" part.

If the majority want the dead money to GTF out of the way, I can do that before I make that investment. (No, I'm not threatening to take my ball and bat and go home if I don't get my way.)

jtompilot · Mar 4, 2019

LSJohn said:
I think you're probably right.

**sigh**

What I'm doing is expressing what I'd prefer, and why. Who am I forcing? Looks to me that you're wanting to use the Members Only Tournament to get me to either match up or GTF out of the way after I donate my $100.

I haven't figured out what part of my $700-800 expenses and my $100 entry fee and my green fee is the "free" part.

If the majority want the dead money to GTF out of the way, I can do that before I make that investment. (No, I'm not threatening to take my ball and bat and go home if I don't get my way.)

Free Part.......Quality friendship

crabbcatjohn · Mar 4, 2019

LSJohn said:
I think you're probably right.

**sigh**

What I'm doing is expressing what I'd prefer, and why. Who am I forcing? Looks to me that you're wanting to use the Members Only Tournament to get me to either match up or GTF out of the way after I donate my $100.

I haven't figured out what part of my $700-800 expenses and my $100 entry fee and my green fee is the "free" part.

If the majority want the dead money to GTF out of the way, I can do that before I make that investment. (No, I'm not threatening to take my ball and bat and go home if I don't get my way.)[/QUOTE

Not at all...
I probably didnt say that the right way, obviously nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. As for the RR or a chip I dont have any problems with it as long as there aren't meaningless matches played.

I dont see meaningless matches as productive in any way. You will never get a players best game if they are locked in and you are out and you are playing a match for funzys. So why bother.
If there is a solution to keep this from happening I'm listening

crabbcatjohn · Mar 4, 2019

A idea for rr

A idea for rr

To be productive here, to lessen the meaningless matches you could seed the final 8 with wins totals. Might give the guys who locked up spots for the last day more incentive to play hard all the way.

Island Drive · Mar 4, 2019

LSJohn said:
I think you're probably right.

**sigh**

What I'm doing is expressing what I'd prefer, and why. Who am I forcing? Looks to me that you're wanting to use the Members Only Tournament to get me to either match up or GTF out of the way after I donate my $100.

I haven't figured out what part of my $700-800 expenses and my $100 entry fee and my green fee is the "free" part.

If the majority want the dead money to GTF out of the way, I can do that before I make that investment. (No, I'm not threatening to take my ball and bat and go home if I don't get my way.)

John....I enjoy allot, how you process life's moments. I did enjoy our breakfast in Houston at the Waffle House, with Hendy and ?. If yah ever wanna 1/2 your room cost at the next Senior event pm me. Living on SSI ain't for sissies

.

WE DON'T HAVE KETCHUP !!!!

youngstown · Mar 4, 2019

Alternatives to Double Elimination format

crabbcatjohn said:
LSJohn said:

I think you're probably right.

**sigh**

What I'm doing is expressing what I'd prefer, and why. Who am I forcing? Looks to me that you're wanting to use the Members Only Tournament to get me to either match up or GTF out of the way after I donate my $100.

I haven't figured out what part of my $700-800 expenses and my $100 entry fee and my green fee is the "free" part.

If the majority want the dead money to GTF out of the way, I can do that before I make that investment. (No, I'm not threatening to take my ball and bat and go home if I don't get my way.)[/QUOTE

Not at all...

I probably didnt say that the right way, obviously nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. As for the RR or a chip I dont have any problems with it as long as there aren't meaningless matches played.

I dont see meaningless matches as productive in any way. You will never get a players best game if they are locked in and you are out and you are playing a match for funzys. So why bother.

If there is a solution to keep this from happening I'm listening

Click to expand...

One solution would be to have a limited chip tourney, as opposed to an unlimited one. I thought an unlimited one would be preferred to get more play. Not everyone wants the same thing, so it’s hard to propose something that everyone would want.

youngstown · Mar 4, 2019

Alternatives to Double Elimination format

Another solution would be to run a chip tourney from 12-8. Then there’s a gambling window until next day from 12-8...

crabbcatjohn · Mar 4, 2019

If you would have read my second post I explained my views better Larry. I was disagreeing with the meaningless matches in some of the proposed RR formats in the actual tournament.

I played for 18 years in a trophy league. I understand that format. I've also played Buddy hundreds and hundreds of 5 dollar games of 1 pocket and thousands of three dollar 9 ball games. I understand that and love playing better players cheap.

But I've never played in a tournament were some of the individual match outcomes were designed to be meaningless.

lll · Mar 4, 2019

john
i apologize for the misunderstanding
i deleted my post
larry

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Mar 4, 2019

After rightfully shutting down another thread, this thread was created to re-boot and get back on track discussion of alternatives formats to the 3/3 DE.

Scrzbil, had legitimate concerns; 1. he felt a RR would not allow time to socialize and match up, which he is right if they run all day Saturday without some kind of elimination process, or safeguards instilled. 2. He made flight and hotel plans with the expectations of playing a 3/3 DE, not any other format.

I felt that I can not take these concerns as blindly being solely his own, and that players attending may very well have the same concerns in regards of a changed format to a RR. Therefore these concerns needed to be properly addressed.

A-RR Format rd. of 32 can be concluded by mid-after noon Saturday, 8 players could go directly into Sundays final or there could be a rd. of 16 if time allows. Which solves concern #1. No way to resolve concern #2 for there is no way to conduct a vote by those members going to this year's MOT, 'prior' to making flight and hotel plans. A catch 22, whether you want a RR or a 3/3 DE.

As far as I can recollect no other member has voiced concerns objecting going to a MOT - RR Format, not meaning there are not others, of course. But, we have had quite a few past MOT players speak up in favor of going to a RR format.

***So my question is; are there any members planning to go to this year's MOT, or members that have attended past MOT's, or Verified Members that have the right to attend, that would object going to a RR Format? ***

I am not trying to change this year's 3/3 format, but it seems a reasonable question, we might as well get right to the point, so we can get on with deciding a 2020 MOT format. Otherwise, why continue to beat a dead drum if there is a lot of opposition to a RR format, like we have been doing since the last MOT.

thanks, Whitey

Jimmy B · Mar 4, 2019

crabbcatjohn said:
If you would have read my second post I explained my views better Larry. I was disagreeing with the meaningless matches in some of the proposed RR formats in the actual tournament.

I played for 18 years in a trophy league. I understand that format. I've also played Buddy hundreds and hundreds of 5 dollar games of 1 pocket and thousands of three dollar 9 ball games. I understand that and love playing better players cheap.

But I've never played in a tournament were some of the individual match outcomes were designed to be meaningless.

I know what you mean, Crab Cat.... Sort of like letting the home team bat in the bottom of the ninth, even though they already have the lead..

darmoose · Mar 4, 2019

I ain't gonna quote anybody whilst I express these thoughts for concern about hurting anyone's feelers. These latest posts are quite a twist on what a MOT is and should be.

First, as I've said previously, I enjoy a bet on a game of OP as much as most, I don't think I've played a free game of OP that I can remember. But, we all know this, when you walk through the door to a poolroom you are predator and prey all at the same time. Every one of us experiences moreso one end of that spectrum depending on your skills and the level of players wherever you go. In any given situation you assess where you sit on that spectrum and act accordingly when it comes to gambling. You may get a reasonable spot, but we all also know the other guy ain't trying to make sure you get a fair shake, and he has more tools and more knowledge than you do, assuming you realize as they say when you look around and can't identify the sucker, well, you know the rest.

All that said, we wanna play and so we do our best, and I agree. Can those who think some of the games in a RR MOT are "meaningless" define that description, and by the way, name any other format that doesn't have the same "meaningless" games.

As has been said, and lamented by many. about half the field of any of our past MOT's are "dead money" and therefore are probably playing "meaningless" matches.

There is nothing stopping the players of any tournament game from placing a bet on that game. As to "comradity", I love it, and for a reasonable bet you can make that argument. But, when they start with the 2, 3, 4 hundred a game, that ain't about comradity. Too often that kind of gambling amongst non professionals is just a manifestation that one player has more money, or more pride than brains, and the other guy is glad to take advantage of that, not the greatest scenario for a sanctioned MOT by OP.org IMHO.

Of course we all are 3 times 21, and then a lot, so do as you wish with your own money. Last thought... anyone thinking they are being forced to play "meaningless" games, and has an opportunity to gamble with a friend (or a fish) is more than free to pull up and go do that, no?

I can't see how gambling and matching up can take a priority over getting everyone involved for as long as possible, competing with friends. Gamblers are always gonna find a way, many are coming in early or are willing to stay up at all hours to do so.

So, all youse guys that wanna give me 9/7, sign up below, if the list looks promising I'll stop playing those "meaningless" matches for sure.