Scott Frost vs John Hager giving 10-7 ~ One Pocket

strokerace · Feb 20, 2011

Never understood the tight pocket thing..i always play center pocket on
every shot..never ever effected my game just adapted to pocket speed..
and layed off the extreme english..a minor adaptation to say the least..SA

onepocketchump · Feb 20, 2011

strokerace said:
Never understood the tight pocket thing..i always play center pocket on
every shot..never ever effected my game just adapted to pocket speed..
and layed off the extreme english..a minor adaptation to say the least..SA

Tight pockets affect how you hit the ball and how much you can cheat the "center" of the pocket.

It's not a minor thing at all.

If you were to break it down into numbers and say that you had 100 possible shots on a table with 4.5" pockets and by reducing the pocket openings to 4" those 100 shots became 70 then you have just lost 30% of your arsenal.

Now if you are a player who is very familiar with the 4" pockets then you know what shots you can and cannot make and your arsenal stands ready with a well-honed skill to back it up. For the unfamiliar player he has to guess during battle what shots go and what shots don't. That affects his choices and patterns considerably.

I played on a table that I think was less than 4" at Shooter's in Olathe KS and I was honestly afraid to shoot at my hole on shots I would make easily in the heart of the pocket on 4.25" pockets. I made a comment to my opponent that I felt like I had to jump the balls into the hole. I pulled up after two games because I couldn't fade the feeling of helplessness.

My opponent didn't even run a lot of balls. He just lagged them to the hole and played the cueball safe. I could have played that game with him as well but I was already disconcerted and decided to look for other action on more comfortable tables.

Artie Bodendorfer · Feb 20, 2011

onepocketchump said:
Tight pockets affect how you hit the ball and how much you can cheat the "center" of the pocket.

It's not a minor thing at all.

If you were to break it down into numbers and say that you had 100 possible shots on a table with 4.5" pockets and by reducing the pocket openings to 4" those 100 shots became 70 then you have just lost 30% of your arsenal.

Now if you are a player who is very familiar with the 4" pockets then you know what shots you can and cannot make and your arsenal stands ready with a well-honed skill to back it up. For the unfamiliar player he has to guess during battle what shots go and what shots don't. That affects his choices and patterns considerably.

I played on a table that I think was less than 4" at Shooter's in Olathe KS and I was honestly afraid to shoot at my hole on shots I would make easily in the heart of the pocket on 4.25" pockets. I made a comment to my opponent that I felt like I had to jump the balls into the hole. I pulled up after two games because I couldn't fade the feeling of helplessness.

My opponent didn't even run a lot of balls. He just lagged them to the hole and played the cueball safe. I could have played that game with him as well but I was already disconcerted and decided to look for other action on more comfortable tables.[/QUOTE

I will tell it like it is no matter who says what. This comes from me playing and my Experence. THe tougher the pocket the better for the better player and shooter. Because they are more accurate.

If Scott playes the same game on the same table. It would all be different. And Scott could beat wis opponent the same way or worse by playing another match.

People dont realize its just one match and if they play again it will be different. And the other player might never win a nother match.

Or maybe Scott might not ever wi a match playing 10 to 7. But I no one thing for sure the next time they play.

IT will have a different resulte. Just like I seen players beat people playing them even. And the other player could spot them the 6 or 7 ball playing nine ball.

The tight pockets didnt beat Scott. What beat Scott is he didnt play well. And if you ask him.

I think he will agree with what I said. And its not the tough pockets that beat him. It was the way he played that beat him. Weather his mind was on the game or somewere else only Scott knows.

But Scott playes great and it does not matter to him weather the pockets are loose or tight. Because he is a player. And if Scott Plays his game. You will see a different resulte.

If anything the tight pockets should help Scott more then the other player. Because Scoot knowes the game better and is a better banker and shooter playing one pocket.

And Scott has too much experience to let a tighter pocket afect his game. He knowes what he has too do to win.

And If the spot was too big what he gave out. Thats another story. But I would say by what I watched. Scott did not play his game.

And he can play a lot better. We are all hummans. And we are not always motuvated too play good and hard .

And put all our efforts into every game we play. If Scott showes up too play. What I seen I like Scott. I dont no what they played for or if the motavation was thier.

BUt the morale off the story is the tighter the pockets the better for the better player. I have proven this over and over again. With people I have played.

And I am sure that we will agree that Scott is the better player. And the tighter the pockets favor the better player. And I did not say the better shooter. I said the better player.

wincardona · Feb 20, 2011

your joking, right?

your joking, right?

Artie Bodendorfer said:
onepocketchump said:

Tight pockets affect how you hit the ball and how much you can cheat the "center" of the pocket.

It's not a minor thing at all.

If you were to break it down into numbers and say that you had 100 possible shots on a table with 4.5" pockets and by reducing the pocket openings to 4" those 100 shots became 70 then you have just lost 30% of your arsenal.

Now if you are a player who is very familiar with the 4" pockets then you know what shots you can and cannot make and your arsenal stands ready with a well-honed skill to back it up. For the unfamiliar player he has to guess during battle what shots go and what shots don't. That affects his choices and patterns considerably.

I played on a table that I think was less than 4" at Shooter's in Olathe KS and I was honestly afraid to shoot at my hole on shots I would make easily in the heart of the pocket on 4.25" pockets. I made a comment to my opponent that I felt like I had to jump the balls into the hole. I pulled up after two games because I couldn't fade the feeling of helplessness.

My opponent didn't even run a lot of balls. He just lagged them to the hole and played the cueball safe. I could have played that game with him as well but I was already disconcerted and decided to look for other action on more comfortable tables.[/QUOTE

I will tell it like it is no matter who says what. This comes from me playing and my Experence. THe tougher the pocket the better for the better player and shooter. Because they are more accurate.

If Scott playes the same game on the same table. It would all be different. And Scott could beat wis opponent the same way or worse by playing another match.

People dont realize its just one match and if they play again it will be different. And the other player might never win a nother match.

Or maybe Scott might not ever wi a match playing 10 to 7. But I no one thing for sure the next time they play.

IT will have a different resulte. Just like I seen players beat people playing them even. And the other player could spot them the 6 or 7 ball playing nine ball.

The tight pockets didnt beat Scott. What beat Scott is he didnt play well. And if you ask him.

I think he will agree with what I said. And its not the tough pockets that beat him. It was the way he played that beat him. Weather his mind was on the game or somewere else only Scott knows.

But Scott playes great and it does not matter to him weather the pockets are loose or tight. Because he is a player. And if Scott Plays his game. You will see a different resulte.

If anything the tight pockets should help Scott more then the other player. Because Scoot knowes the game better and is a better banker and shooter playing one pocket.

And Scott has too much experience to let a tighter pocket afect his game. He knowes what he has too do to win.

And If the spot was too big what he gave out. Thats another story. But I would say by what I watched. Scott did not play his game.

And he can play a lot better. We are all hummans. And we are not always motuvated too play good and hard .

And put all our efforts into every game we play. If Scott showes up too play. What I seen I like Scott. I dont no what they played for or if the motavation was thier.

BUt the morale off the story is the tighter the pockets the better for the better player. I have proven this over and over again. With people I have played.

And I am sure that we will agree that Scott is the better player. And the tighter the pockets favor the better player. And I did not say the better shooter. I said the better player.

Click to expand...

Please tell me your joking, bcause if your not then you have really slipped. Are you really serious when you say that ..WHEN GIVING SUBSTANTIAL WEIGHT THE POCKET SIZE DOESN'T MATTER? If two players are playing even then the better player has a better game on tight pockets, but if two players are playing a game where one player is getting substantial weight he is better off playing on 4 inch pockets or smaller. Let me give you an example, if I was giving up the 7 playing 9 ball do you think I would have a better game playing on a snooker table? Of coarse not, the player giving up weight needs a pocket size that doesn't affect his strengths, and a pocket size that will create problems for his opponent the weaker player.

If I played Frost getting 10 to 6 I would much rather play on a table with 4 inch pockets, than a table with 4-1/2 inch pockets. And this I feel very strongly about.

Don't forget i'm a doctor.

Billy I.

SJDinPHX · Feb 20, 2011

Aux contraire, amigos...

Aux contraire, amigos...

After watching the first 6-8 games, it looked to me as if Scott had the nuts..I even blew a few hundred to a chat streamer, who I doubt had ever seen a one pocket game in his life..

I don't know what happened to Scott, but I don't think it was all the fault of the table, or Hagar's play...He started playing 'give-up pool', which I've rarely (if ever) seen him do.

If they play the same game, I will go off again, myself, and jack the bet up if I can...John has to play well over his head, and Scott has to play as bad as he can, to lose at that game...JMHO..

Artie Bodendorfer · Feb 21, 2011

SJDinPHX said:
After watching the first 6-8 games, it looked to me as if Scott had the nuts..I even blew a few hundred to a chat streamer, who I doubt had ever seen a one pocket game in his life..

I don't know what happened to Scott, but I don't think it was all the fault of the table, or Hagar's play...He started playing 'give-up pool', which I've rarely (if ever) seen him do.

If they play the same game, I will go off again, myself, and jack the bet up if I can...John has to play well over his head, and Scott has to play as bad as he can, to lose at that game...JMHO..

i AGREE WITH YOU i SAID THE SAME THING ON ONE OFF MY PTHER POSTS. i DIDNT BET ON EITHER PLAYER. But I no enough too no Scott didnt play his game. And it was not the yight pockets. Itsv like Scott was not into the game.

And he just went through the motions. How much did they play for? Maybe Scott just didnt feel like playing. We have all been there. But what I seen I like Scott in the game. I dont care it they are 3 inch pockets.

Because the better player will get more shots. And should start with easier shots too. Because he is the better player. Unless he isnt the better player. But what I seen Scott is the better player.

Viffer · Feb 21, 2011

wincardona said:
Artie Bodendorfer said:

Please tell me your joking, bcause if your not then you have really slipped. Are you really serious when you say that ..WHEN GIVING SUBSTANTIAL WEIGHT THE POCKET SIZE DOESN'T MATTER? If two players are playing even then the better player has a better game on tight pockets, but if two players are playing a game where one player is getting substantial weight he is better off playing on 4 inch pockets or smaller. Let me give you an example, if I was giving up the 7 playing 9 ball do you think I would have a better game playing on a snooker table? Of coarse not, the player giving up weight needs a pocket size that doesn't affect his strengths, and a pocket size that will create problems for his opponent the weaker player.

If I played Frost getting 10 to 6 I would much rather play on a table with 4 inch pockets, than a table with 4-1/2 inch pockets. And this I feel very strongly about.

Don't forget i'm a doctor.

Billy I.

Click to expand...

id rather play on 5 inch pockets the 4.5 pockets against any of them getting spotted in one pocket.

wanna debate this for 500$

Cowboy Dennis · Feb 21, 2011

wincardona said:
Artie Bodendorfer said:

Please tell me your joking, bcause if your not then you have really slipped. Are you really serious when you say that ..WHEN GIVING SUBSTANTIAL WEIGHT THE POCKET SIZE DOESN'T MATTER?
Billy I.

Click to expand...

I was going to mention this but I figured 'why bother?'

Scott lost because he was missing balls by 3 inches not because the table was tight. I watched the match after the first 5 or 6 games and if Scott had played to 90% of his capabilities then he would have won.

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis · Feb 21, 2011

Viffer said:
wincardona said:

id rather play on 5 inch pockets the 4.5 pockets against any of them getting spotted in one pocket.

wanna debate this for 500$

Click to expand...

Dave, there's no debate here, you do what you like with your money but I will say this: if you got 16-4 from one of those guys who gives it to you and you played on 5" pockets and broke even, then you came back the next day and played the same game on 4.5" pockets, you'd win. The tighter table takes away their ball-running capabilities and that's the thing they are counting on when you make a mistake. The tighter table isn't really going to hurt you as much as it hurts them.

Dennis

f67bird · Feb 21, 2011

Yeah, I'm not sure that it was the table being tight that bothered him.
He was playing someone else (carrottop?) on that same table the night before and seemed to be playing strong on it.
Maybe he just doesn't match up or play well against this guy.
Some people seem to get you out of synch...

lll · Feb 21, 2011

Cowboy Dennis said:
Viffer said:

Dave, there's no debate here, you do what you like with your money but I will say this: if you got 16-4 from one of those guys who gives it to you and you played on 5" pockets and broke even, then you came back the next day and played the same game on 4.5" pockets, you'd win. The tighter table takes away their ball-running capabilities and that's the thing they are counting on when you make a mistake. The tighter table isn't really going to hurt you as much as it hurts them.

Dennis

Click to expand...

heres the devils advocate arguing both sides
this should get some discussion i hope

if im getting getting a big spot
my ability/accuracy to run balls is definitely inferioir to my opponent
therefore dont i need a bigger pocket so i can make MY balls??
and in viffers case when the spot is so big he doesnt expect his opponent to run 18 and out

if im getting a big spot i want to be able to make my balls BEFORE my opponent makes his.therefore i want it as tough as possible for my opponent to make a ball therefore i want tougher pockets to make it tougher for HIM.

which way do you guys see it

lll · Feb 21, 2011

if im correct so far billy, viffer, and dennis seem to favor the weaker player should play on the smaller pocket table
artie thinks the weaker player should play on the bigger pockets.
i think ill srart a thread on this so it doesnt gt buried here.

bstroud · Feb 21, 2011

When the better player is giving up a spot he wants looser pockets.

Notice I said looser. Pocket size is not the only factor. Pocket cut as well as the fall of the slate are also considerations. Humidity is also a big factor. What time of day you play is also important especially in more humid areas.

If you are giving up a spot never play in the evening when the dew point reaches a certain level. The pockets will get tight and hang balls.

A spot for a good player in Vegas is not the same as a spot in Tampa. Trust me.

Bill Stroud

lll · Feb 21, 2011

if you want to comment on tight vs loose pockets go here please so there arent 2 threads
http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?p=63053&posted=1#post63053

lll · Feb 21, 2011

as the weaker player i would want to make balls when i get my few chances .therefore i would want bigger pockets
as the weaker player i would want to prevent my opponent from running out so i have more opportunities.
therefore i would want tighter pockets.
as the stronger player i would want to run as many as possible ,therefore bigger pockets
as the stronger player i would want to make it as hard as possible for my opponent to make a ball there fore smaller pockets
as you can see im undecided which choice is correct
curious how the more experienced players see it.

Artie Bodendorfer · Feb 21, 2011

lll said:
if you want to comment on tight vs loose pockets go here please so there arent 2 threads
http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?p=63053&posted=1#post63053

The tighter the pockets the better for the better player. Bugs and I played the same player 8 to5 and the breack.I never lost too the player. And I even played him more times then Bugs.

Bugs lost more times playing him then he one. Because off the way he played. Nick Varner played the same player 8 to 5 breack apeace.

And Nick Lost. Ut was the only game Nick played that I didnt take a peace off his action. I didnt take any off Gradies action either.

Because the style Nick played he didnt have too win. And Nick thought I trapped him because I didnt take any off his bet. But I no the style nick playes he doesnt have too win.

And I can play Grady myself and I give him 8 to 5 and the breack and I never lost. So why would I want too take a peace off Nick? And this is Grady the Roofer not Grady Mathwer.

Grady Mathwes was a great player. bUt it just showes were the better player can win. Were the better shooter loose.

Thats why I brought it up. The better player has a better game playing a good player on a tighter table.

And for a player like Johs Schmidt too beat Scott on a tough table is very hard. But on a loose pocket table 3 out off 5 John Schmidt has a good chance off beating Scott Frost.

Belive it or not thats the way it is.

lfigueroa · Feb 22, 2011

strokerace said:
Never understood the tight pocket thing..i always play center pocket on
every shot..never ever effected my game just adapted to pocket speed..
and layed off the extreme english..a minor adaptation to say the least..SA

In my travels around the country I have come across several tables that were set up with really small pockets. You get on these tables and it changes everything and you have to adopt a different style of play or you will lose. I played in one tournament where the money table was like this and because of my previous experience I was able to adapt and beat a couple of players in the semis and finals that would have probably tortured me on normal equipment.

One other thing: I used to play in a room with a 10' snooker table and every once in a while I'd take a set of pool balls over to it and practice. I found that to pocket balls with equipment that unforgiving, I actually had to change my mechanics a bit -- basically everything stroke-wise needs to be short and sweet and center ball. You go open hand bridge and get low, and to all appearances become very much the snooker player. Once again, you have to adapt or you will lose.

Lou Figueroa

Artie Bodendorfer · Feb 22, 2011

bstroud said:
When the better player is giving up a spot he wants looser pockets.

Notice I said looser. Pocket size is not the only factor. Pocket cut as well as the fall of the slate are also considerations. Humidity is also a big factor. What time of day you play is also important especially in more humid areas.

If you are giving up a spot never play in the evening when the dew point reaches a certain level. The pockets will get tight and hang balls.

A spot for a good player in Vegas is not the same as a spot in Tampa. Trust me.

Bill Stroud

WE has a Guy called John the Greek he would never play or go in the place if he seen a penny laying on the ground on Tails. And he sewed the Sity for slanted side walks the hurt his feet.

And If you were a Geminie he would aoutomatickly back you. He use to drive in his car with a wooden board he would sit on.

And he could ge for moths without taking a bath. He would play double deck pinochale and he would put a big winter coat over his head. Wuth 90% tempature.

And the guy would ask him why he put his big over coat over his head. And he said too keep all the bad vibrations away.

Scott Frost vs John Hager giving 10-7 ~ One Pocket

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