Tournament Dumping???

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
Several people have e-mailed me and/or pm'ed me to thank me for this story http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834?sms_ss=favorites&at_xt=4dec2968c3765762,1 on the dump of a major tournament by a couple of major, top-level poolplayers including one who was recently voted into the onepocket.org HOF.

All credit must go to R.H. Gilmer, the recently deceased and highly respected "Professor" from the Southern Billiards online forums. These are his posts and responses to a thread he started regarding "splits, takedowns & savers".
shorty said:
On another note, I heard a rumor once that Buddy Hall and some guys threw a tourney once so a guy with 40-1 odds could win it? Any truth to that? All the guys bet on the longshot and he beats Buddy in the finals.

Professor said:
Shorty, yes, the tournament you are in reference to was, I think, the first "$50,000 Challenge of Champions". It took place somewhere around 1991, could have been 1990 or 1992. I will tell you what I know.

There were eight players that were to play in the match; supposedly eight of the best players there were at that time. The casino(s), I believe out of Vegas but, I dont recall exactly which one(s), were sponsoring it. It was a $50,000 winner take all tournament. I dont remember the eight players, but two of them were Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron. I truly wish I could name the other six players.

Anyway, one player that was obviously absent from the list was Earl Strickland, player of the year and current world champion. The reason given that Earl could not be there was that he was scheduled to be out of the country and would not be able to play. Now, you need to realize that the conversation I am about to recount to you happened BEFORE the tournament. And, whatever you may think of Earl for whatever reason, the following shot my stock in him through the roof.

I mentioned to Strickland that I hated hearing that he would not be able to compete in the $50,000 Challenge of Champions due to being out of the country. He kind of chuckled in the way that he does and said something to the effect that yea, he would be out of the country but, they had scheduled it that way because they didnt want him to play in it. At that point, I was thinking Earl may have a little too high an opinion of him self. Then what he told me I found totally incredulous. He told me that they planned to split the money ($50,000) up equally among them! Furthermore, the long shot in the tournament (even odds would be 7 to one against) was LeBron, and that the house odds on him were 20 to 1. The idea was that the players could then bet the money back on LeBron. Earl said he would have nothing to do with fixing the match! He said he told them he would play, but that if he did he would be playing to win, and would not agree to any split agreements.

Now, I think you would admit, that was really an unbelievable story. I left that conversation with my first doubts about things Earl says. Well to this day I owe him an apology for having doubted what he said.

The Challenge took place. Now, this was a big thing. I mean in my mind that event was one of the best things that had ever happened to pool. Not only did we have a sponsor behind the event for 50 large, which was great, but, they were also making lines on the event! Now, people may approve or disapprove of gambling, I will not judge others individual beliefs; personally for some people I think it is wrong for them to gamble, and for others I dont. However, I do believe that one of the best things that can happen to a sport, it terms of making it popular, is the ability of the public to wager on it. Bingo! With this event we had two of the best things that could ever happen to pool taking place; a sponsor putting money behind the game and lines were being made legally! Damn, people it dont get any better!

Then I saw the finals of the match! Time and time again I watched the last two innings between Buddy Hall and Mike LeBron, I could NOT believe what I was seeing. It has been a decade or more since I saw it, but I remember it well. They made it look good. The problem was they made it look too good. Here is what happened, the best I can recall.

The finals match came down to Buddy and Mike at hill/hill. Some how Mike, trying to win, left Buddy Hall an easy shot on the eight. I mean the eight was somewhere a around the spot, the nine was setting a few inches below it. The cue ball was over by the side pocket and off the side rail, so that the shot on the eight was almost perfect. Just shoot the eight in and draw back for an easy shot on the nine. Any, I mean ANY decent 9-ball player is going to get out here. I mean hell, I would even let you bet what you like, and I would bet I could get out from there even to day, and I dont really play anymore.

But, to my shock and chagrin, Buddy Hall missed the shot and sends the eight, the nine, and the cue ball all rolling around the table. Now get this, when the balls stop, the best I remember, LeBron is left safe on the eight, he may have even been hooked. Like I say it has been over a decade, but the best I remember, by sheer luck Buddy had left Mike snookered on the eight. Mike makes a good hit on the eight but, leaves Buddy again with an easy shot on the eight into a corner pocket, where the cue and the eight are both over by the side rail, and getting shape on the nine is nothing.

You know how the cameramen will shoot over the pocket toward the ball that is to be pocketed. Well, that was the view given, and the shoot was such a slight cut that you could also see the cue ball in the frame. This was where I sat there watching the video in total disbelief! You could tell from the angle of the camera shot, that as Buddy lined up on the shot, not only was he going to miss another gime, the shot was so easy, he was actually was cutting the eight away from the pocket! Again, one of the best there was missed, another easy shot. I appeared more that obvious to me that he tried to miss. But, in his defense, we, and even the best have missed easy shots, but for one of the best in the world, and one of the best money players ever known, to do it back to back with 50 large on the line, get real. Remember, second got nothing (supposedly), it was a winner take all.

Then, just like Earl had told me would happen, Mike LeBron won!

If you think I may have judged the situation to harshly, get a copy of the tape of the final match and watch it for your self, I think you will agree with me. Furthermore, if you purchase the tape with the expectation of watching two good pool player play the best they can for the cash, you will have been cheated! They were playing for the cash alright, and it was wrong. Now, before any of you want to jump my case for condemning these players, I am not condemning them, just their actions. As individuals, the true measure is what they will do, rather than what the might have done. We all change. The greatest wrong is not in the mistakes we make, but if we fail to learn from them.

Again, we had met the enemy and it was us! Yes, we had a sponsor putting considerable money behind the sport, and they were making lines on the game; and in the typical self interests motivated logic of pool players, we tried to get the best of them. My God, will we ever learn.

My understanding is that the $50,000 Challenge of Champions has been continued by a different group, the Mohegan Sun I think. However, I have been told that there were some little problems in Vegas after this first event. The end result was that they no longer make lines on pool games and some people were asked to leave and never return, and last but not least, this group left with a bad taste in their mouth with respect to sponsoring pool. The take I got on it was, had this happened a few decades earlier, we would still be asking, What ever happen to .. ?

We often want to compare pool to other sports that have considerable public appeal. One such other sport is baseball. Now most would agree that the worst single event that ever happened to baseball was the Blacksox of 1919. In my opinion, the group that played in that first $50,000 Challenge of Champions are our Blacksox.


Postscript: Not that the topic is Earl, but there was one other comment he made to me during that same conversation, it which it was evident he was not in favor of agreements to split up the money from tournaments. It was around that time that he had won the U.S. Open, playing Nick Varner in the finals. He told me that when they were getting ready to lag for the break, Nick turned to him and said, Split? The which Earl said he replied, Nick, you just lost !

Professor,
Quantum ego meditatio, quantum fortunatus ego acquiro

This thread is for the people who have requested more info and have thanked me for the original post on the topic. We need more like you.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
Terry Ardeno's post on the subject from the All-Zaniness site:

Terry Ardeno said:
07-16-2011, 05:02 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was orginally advertized as the "Pro Am Celebrity Billiards Challenge", an event promoted by Billiards International. Then, Matt Braun decided to drop the amateurs players & keep the 8 pro players, who then played a single elimination, winner take all mini tournament.

It was held at the Mirage Hotel-Casino in Las Vegas.

The players were Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Allen Hopkins, David Howard, Kim Davenport & Mike LeBron.

Hall was the 8/5 favorite to win, LeBron was a 20-1 bet.

Howard beat Varner 5-0, Davenport beat Sigel 5-4, Hall beat Hopkins 5-3 & LeBron beat Rempe 5-3.

The semis were Hall beating Davenport & LeBron beating Howard.

In the finals, LeBron won an extended race to 9 by the score of 9-8.

Dennis
 

Ken_4fun

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
233
I have seen the video, it was obvious.

It was my understanding that Vegas didnt pay off fully, and several were asked not to return.

20-1 with much more that $50K bet, much more. ;)

Just the rumor I have been told....

Ken
 

grimel

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
67
This is partially why pool will never be a strong TV sport. The players are too worried about right now and don't care about next week. PLAY straight up, dress nicely, and go NASCAR in referring to sponsors and it will be possible to earn a good living for more that the top 4 players on a tour.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
This is partially why pool will never be a strong TV sport. The players are too worried about right now and don't care about next week. PLAY straight up, dress nicely, and go NASCAR in referring to sponsors and it will be possible to earn a good living for more that the top 4 players on a tour.

grimel,

Pool will not be a "strong TV" sport in our lifetimes because TV is not "King" any longer. The computer and online streams mean a lot to the "fans" of today. If a major "pool" sponsor contributed to the sport and barred any miscreants from competing, what would be the punishment for indiscretions? The miscreants would have to resort to doing what they are doing now? That's not a deterrent to their behavior, that's what they enjoy. They are not interested in "earning a good living".

You do know, don't you, that NASCAR stands for Non-Athletic Sport Created Around Rednecks, right?

Dennis
 

grimel

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
67
grimel,

Pool will not be a "strong TV" sport in our lifetimes because TV is not "King" any longer. The computer and online streams mean a lot to the "fans" of today. If a major "pool" sponsor contributed to the sport and barred any miscreants from competing, what would be the punishment for indiscretions? The miscreants would have to resort to doing what they are doing now? That's not a deterrent to their behavior, that's what they enjoy. They are not interested in "earning a good living".

You do know, don't you, that NASCAR stands for Non-Athletic Sport Created Around Rednecks, right?

Dennis

I don't care what NASCAR means, they are successful marketing their show. The Asian and European tours seem to do well and have stars. Our stars are road players that don't grasp the idea of short term sacrifice for long term gains.

The living they have is great, either they are broke or they have pockets of cash. If they can't find a stake horse they are paupers.

I know I'm wasting electrons, but, sometimes it just boils over.
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
I actually have the tapes somewhere up in my attic. The match with lebron and david howard has some telling moments in it as well. However, the finals were the real sign it was truly a dump. I remember it differently that the professor....

Buddy was on the hill, I think lebron still needed 2 games. Buddy scratched in the side on a shot where he hit the end rail with the cb first. I have been watching buddy play for 20 years, and it just was so so out of place. Hill hill, buddy had to play for an 8 9 combo. He got good on the combo too. I think the odds on the combo from where he got were probably about 85% make for a top player.... who knows. I always thought that scratch was more telling though.

Interestingly, when buddy missed the combo he left lebron a semi difficult shot on the 8. He knocked it in. That would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he would have dogged that.
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
I always wondered how they did it all. There are some big names in there. How did they decide who would progress in the tournament?? Or who would have to play lebron??? Interesting.

I had never heard vegas refused to pay. Nice info on that.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
I actually have the tapes somewhere up in my attic. The match with lebron and david howard has some telling moments in it as well. However, the finals were the real sign it was truly a dump. I remember it differently that the professor....

I always wondered how they did it all. There are some big names in there. How did they decide who would progress in the tournament?? Or who would have to play lebron??? Interesting.

I had never heard vegas refused to pay. Nice info on that.

TD,

If you ever find those tapes I'd pitch in a C-note for you to send them to CaliRed and have him transfer them to DVD. Then I'd buy one.

As far as who progressed in the tournament, it didn't matter who progressed, it was a pre-arranged ending so that's all that mattered. Buddy was probably the best player in the tourney anyway so he would get the highest odds from casinos. I also doubt seriously that casinos refused to pay off. They made a line and lost, they would have had to pay off I would think.

I'll tell you what I think is interesting; no so-called players on this site have commented in this thread. Not even the drug-addled scatterbrain from the left coast. Guys who post 13 replies in a meaningless layout post have nothing to say about this thread:confused:. I guess they are better telling lies about dead men than telling the truth about live men.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
TD,

If you ever find those tapes I'd pitch in a C-note for you to send them to CaliRed and have him transfer them to DVD. Then I'd buy one.

As far as who progressed in the tournament, it didn't matter who progressed, it was a pre-arranged ending so that's all that mattered. Buddy was probably the best player in the tourney anyway so he would get the highest odds from casinos. I also doubt seriously that casinos refused to pay off. They made a line and lost, they would have had to pay off I would think.

I'll tell you what I think is interesting; no so-called players on this site have commented in this thread. Not even the drug-addled scatterbrain from the left coast. Guys who post 13 replies in a meaningless layout post have nothing to say about this thread:confused:. I guess they are better telling lies about dead men than telling the truth about live men.

Dennis

I would do that for you in a second -- no payment needed :) We even have a vhs to dvd burner, but they are in my dad's attic is the more appropriate way to put it. Next time i'm there, I promise i'll dig them out... it will be no problem finding them, just never sure how soon i'll be home :(

I have from that tourny:
davenport vs hall
hopkins vs hall
sigel vs davenport (i remember sigel crying about "the old 4 ball". he missed the 4 to potentially get in or win this match)
lebron vs howard
lebron hall

Its funny because the guy on the commentary, a non pool ESPN guy, kept mentioning.... "the first time pool is on the boards.... Lebron is at 20 to 1 so I know there were some who bet on him" lol
 
Last edited:

ChrisBanks

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
149
From
Rochester, NY
Why wouldn't they have put all of their money on Buddy and let Buddy win?

They would have won much less money, but it also would have went undetected, and they could have done it again at future tournaments.
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
Why wouldn't they have put all of their money on Buddy and let Buddy win?

They would have won much less money, but it also would have went undetected, and they could have done it again at future tournaments.

Because they are pool players, and they saw a score, got excited and blew their load (forgive my crass language, there is just no other way to euphemistically out it).
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
I was also thinking about Dennis' comment about people not posting in the thread. To augment that thought, I notice players never talked about this either. Here's what I mean..... normally in pool, if a guy dogs an easy out for a bundle, the player himself, and everybody in the world will talk about it for ages. I never once heard hall, say during a commentary for example, "Oh, he dogged it almost as bad as me at the Challenge of Champions" or maybe another player in the booth saying the same thing. It was a big event in pool, yet I just never heard it being discussed or compared in that manner. Telling?

Maybe i'm not impartial (it really has peeved me over the years that they selfishly did this), but I have noticed that, especially after reading Dennis' post.
 

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
It's nice to be informed but the less exposure of this kind of thing the better in my opinion. If we continue to highlight this and briing it to the attention of newer devotees of the sport, the more we impeed our progress to a better world for pool players--Olympic sport, decent paying tournaments, television exposure, substantial sponsorship, etc. It would be like selling transatlantic cruises but playing "The Titanic" all the time.
 

onepockethacker

Verified Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
3,408
It's nice to be informed but the less exposure of this kind of thing the better in my opinion. If we continue to highlight this and briing it to the attention of newer devotees of the sport, the more we impeed our progress to a better world for pool players--Olympic sport, decent paying tournaments, television exposure, substantial sponsorship, etc. It would be like selling transatlantic cruises but playing "The Titanic" all the time.

Sounds like the entire Secret Society probably made a big score on this deal. LOL This is a perfect example of why pool has never gone anywhere and never will.
 

Bill

Verified Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
287
From
Washington DC
... This is a perfect example of why pool has never gone anywhere and never will.



It is a prime example of our past unfortunately but I still have hope that pool will eventually evolve positively to the masses once we old schoolers pass on

The pool table has never committed a sin but unfortunately some of our players have :frus

Pool is a wonderful and most skillful sport. I still hold optimism ...
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Sounds like the entire Secret Society probably made a big score on this deal. LOL This is a perfect example of why pool has never gone anywhere and never will.

Hacker, you are going to piss somebody off, if you keep saying bad things about the "Secret Society"...Some people think that is the way the pool world was meant to operate..:eek:

Smart Square-apple McDuck <---Is speaking for all the guys who are NOT in the S.S..:rolleyes:

Bill said:
..Pool is a wonderful and most skillful sport. I still hold optimism.

PS..So do I Bill...It is OK to be 'old school' but that is not the way to promote our game. As Detroit Whitey once said,
"I am the best in the world, at f**king people over."...A lofty goal for sure..:eek:
 
Last edited:

petie

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
3,314
From
Citrus Springs, FL
Hacker, you are going to piss somebody off, if you keep saying bad things about the "Secret Society"...Some people think that is the way the pool world was meant to operate..:eek:

Smart Square-apple McDuck <---Is speaking for all the guys who are NOT in the S.S..:rolleyes:

PS..So do I Bill...It is OK to be 'old school' but that is not the way to promote our game. As Detroit Whitey once said,
"I am the best in the world, at f**king people over."...A lofty goal for sure..:eek:

Really, Baseball, Bowling, Golf and, I'm sure, many professional sports started out with betting (and the inevitable hustling) as a way to make expenses or a living. People generally act in their own best interest--at least for the short term. When we have a system where a reasonable number of professional players can make a reasonable living, this ugly stuff won't be necessary. Organize.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Really, Baseball, Bowling, Golf and, I'm sure, many professional sports started out with betting (and the inevitable hustling) as a way to make expenses or a living. People generally act in their own best interest--at least for the short term. When we have a system where a reasonable number of professional players can make a reasonable living, this ugly stuff won't be necessary. Organize.

Petie, You may not be aware, but the PBA was just formed in 1959..A few top notch bowler's got together and put up a few bucks apiece, and hired a PR firm and a secretary, and look where that took them..Probably the most boring sport in the world to watch, but they now have 8-10 million up for grabs, and lots of big name sponsors..I won't even get into Golf..Can you envision a few pool players doing something like that ?...Always been that way...So sad !!! I tried to organize pool along those lines, in the 60's...Talk about a fruitless, thankless task...I soon gave up..:rolleyes:
 
Top