Tournament Dumping???

SJDinPHX

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I actually have the tapes somewhere up in my attic. The match with lebron and david howard has some telling moments in it as well. However, the finals were the real sign it was truly a dump. I remember it differently that the professor....

Buddy was on the hill, <---Tyler, this is why I'm having so much trouble digesting this whole thing...Even if this was Buddy's "first dump" (which it may well have been, as it sure looked like it) ;)...he surely would have known enough to be very sure "NOT" to get on the hill, TWO GAMES ahead of LeBron, wouldn't ya think ? :confused: I think lebron still needed 2 games. Buddy scratched in the side on a shot where he hit the end rail with the cb first. I have been watching buddy play for 20 years, and it just was so so out of place. Hill hill, buddy had to play for an 8 9 combo. He got good on the combo too. I think the odds on the combo from where he got were probably about 85% make for a top player.... who knows. I always thought that scratch was more telling though.

Interestingly, when buddy missed the combo he left lebron a semi difficult shot on the 8. He knocked it in. That would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he would have dogged that. <---Very true...or what if Mike would have "jawwed" the 9 ball, on either of his next two wins, which would have forced a guy who has't mis-cued or jumped the table, since he was 12, would have forced Buddy to do !...Or else face SEVERE consequences, from either the Book, or the Bettor's :eek:

Tyler,

I, like everyone else, would really like to see these tapes. The event happened during my hiatus, and I have only heard several vastly differing '9th hand' viewpoints, on how it all unfolded...Including that LeBron, (who was not all THAT weak)...may have wound up in the finale "legitimately"...And a plan was hurriedly hatched, at that point, to do the "nasty" !... Which sounds MUCH more plausable to me..! ...It boggles the mind, that it was an eight man collusion, from the start, as seems to be the general consensus.

There, would have to be many more people involved than just the 8 players ..It would also have to include...All the players circle of friend's (who would have to be in the know), cash ($$$) runner's, Money men, (AKA $take hor$e$) and a good mix of "guess again" bettors ;) ...As most pool players are broke anyway, or will be, soon after their arrival in LV.) IMO,..It would take someone like Artie B. to mastermind such a clusterf##k.. And I doubt he'd even be interested ! :rolleyes:

Also, wouldn't there have to be at least three individual DUMP'S before the final 'ideal pairing' could be assured...Would not all the prior matches have included 'heisting' the book ? (as pool player's are not known for their sublety, or lack of greed :rolleyes:) It appears every other player, would also be an odds on favorite against LeBron...Wouldn't the 'Vegas book' (not known to be idiot's)... have spotted a trend, and at some point...taken future matches "off the board" ?

Who knows what really happened FOR SURE !..A lie detector test, from the 2 principles, may not work at all...As neither Buddy nor Mike, would not want to admit to, (A) "Dogging it" that bad...or (B) "Butchering" an easy dump...:sorry

Paul "The Rest of the Story" McDuck"
 
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Don Smith

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"The maximum bet was $200 and the players could not buy tickets. That did not stop them from sending someone else to the window for them. Each winning $200 ticket paid $4200 and I think there were only eleven sold on Lebron before they changed the line to 9-1. The Mirage took a hit for 40K but when I discussed it with the head of the Sports Book, he laughed it off, saying it was small bananas. But they never made a line again in subsequent Challenges held there in future years" AZ
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Tyler,

I, like everyone else, would really like to see these tapes. The event happened during my hiatus, and I have only heard several vastly differing '9th hand' viewpoints, on how it all unfolded...Including that LeBron, (who was not all THAT weak)...may have wound up in the finale "legitimately"...And a plan was hurriedly hatched, at that point, to do the "nasty" !... Which sounds MUCH more plausable to me..! ...It boggles the mind, that it was an eight man collusion, from the start, as seems to be the general consensus.

There, would have to be many more people involved than just the 8 players ..It would also have to include...All the players circle of friend's (who would have to be in the know), cash ($$$) runner's, Money men, (AKA $take hor$e$) and a good mix of "guess again" bettors ;) ...As most pool players are broke anyway, or will be, soon after their arrival in LV.) IMO,..It would take someone like Artie B. to mastermind such a clusterf##k.. And I doubt he'd even be interested ! :rolleyes:

Also, wouldn't there have to be at least three individual DUMP'S before the final 'ideal pairing' could be assured...Would not all the prior matches have included 'heisting' the book ? (as pool player's are not known for their sublety, or lack of greed :rolleyes:) It appears every other player, would also be an odds on favorite against LeBron...Wouldn't the 'Vegas book' (not known to be idiot's)... have spotted a trend, and at some point...taken future matches "off the board" ?

Who knows what really happened FOR SURE !..A lie detector test, from the 2 principles, may not work at all...As neither Buddy nor Mike, would not want to admit to, (A) "Dogging it" that bad...or (B) "Butchering" an easy dump...:sorry

Paul "The Rest of the Story" McDuck"

Dearest BrainDeadMcDuck,

How you can lay claim to a passable mind yet write such drivel is almost beyond my comprehension...almost. You wait 8 months to reply and then act as if you know anything about it. Let me point out just a few of your errors besides the primary one of posting in the first place.

1. It boggles the mind, that it was an eight man collusion, from the start, as seems to be the general consensus.

If you had bothered to read the opening post of this thread and also comprehend it you would've seen that it was a "winner take all" tournament. You know damn well that there aren't 8 poolplayers anywhere who are going to risk ending up with nothing. They whack up the $50000 and get $6250 guaranteed. Why would that boggle your feeble mind?

2. Including that LeBron, (who was not all THAT weak)...may have wound up in the finale "legitimately"...

LeBron was not the equal of the other 7 guys. Get real.

3. Also, wouldn't there have to be at least three individual DUMP'S before the final 'ideal pairing' could be assured...

Wow, try as we might we just can't get anything past you can we? Of course they colluded to let LeBron advance, that's the point you moron.

4. Would not all the prior matches have included 'heisting' the book ? (as pool player's are not known for their sublety, or lack of greed :rolleyes:)

Apparently you are privy to info that I haven't seen or maybe I missed it. Where did you ever read or hear that the casino was setting odds on each match?

5. Wouldn't the 'Vegas book' (not known to be idiot's)... have spotted a trend, and at some point...taken future matches "off the board" ?

Yes, that's how you know that this did not happen, the finals were the only match that had odds to bet on, to my knowledge.


If you had bothered to try to understand the post I quoted from R.H. Gilmer (Professor) in post #1 you would see that he says Earl told him before the tournament even went off what was going to happen. It was set up in advance according to Mr. Gilmer.

Professor said:
Anyway, one player that was obviously absent from the list was Earl Strickland, player of the year and current world champion. The reason given that Earl could not be there was that he was scheduled to be out of the country and would not be able to play. Now, you need to realize that the conversation I am about to recount to you happened BEFORE the tournament. And, whatever you may think of Earl for whatever reason, the following shot my stock in him through the roof.

I mentioned to Strickland that I hated hearing that he would not be able to compete in the $50,000 Challenge of Champions due to being out of the country. He kind of chuckled in the way that he does and said something to the effect that yea, he would be out of the country but, they had scheduled it that way because they didnt want him to play in it. At that point, I was thinking Earl may have a little too high an opinion of him self. Then what he told me I found totally incredulous. He told me that they planned to split the money ($50,000) up equally among them! Furthermore, the long shot in the tournament (even odds would be 7 to one against) was LeBron, and that the house odds on him were 20 to 1. The idea was that the players could then bet the money back on LeBron. Earl said he would have nothing to do with fixing the match! He said he told them he would play, but that if he did he would be playing to win, and would not agree to any split agreements.

Now, I think you would admit, that was really an unbelievable story. I left that conversation with my first doubts about things Earl says. Well to this day I owe him an apology for having doubted what he said.

Do you understand now Ducky? Mr. Gilmer was told in advance by Earl of the nefarious goings-on of the 8 Men Out. If you ever feel like reading the thread where this was written it is here: http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong

Mr. Gilmer originally started the thread to post about "splits, takedowns & savers" but then progressed to the infamous dump of 1991, one of many I'm sure.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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Tyler,

I, like everyone else, would really like to see these tapes. The event happened during my hiatus, and I have only heard several vastly differing '9th hand' viewpoints, on how it all unfolded...Including that LeBron, (who was not all THAT weak)...may have wound up in the finale "legitimately"...And a plan was hurriedly hatched, at that point, to do the "nasty" !... Which sounds MUCH more plausable to me..! ...It boggles the mind, that it was an eight man collusion, from the start, as seems to be the general consensus.

There, would have to be many more people involved than just the 8 players ..It would also have to include...All the players circle of friend's (who would have to be in the know), cash ($$$) runner's, Money men, (AKA $take hor$e$) and a good mix of "guess again" bettors ;) ...As most pool players are broke anyway, or will be, soon after their arrival in LV.) IMO,..It would take someone like Artie B. to mastermind such a clusterf##k.. And I doubt he'd even be interested ! :rolleyes:

Also, wouldn't there have to be at least three individual DUMP'S before the final 'ideal pairing' could be assured...Would not all the prior matches have included 'heisting' the book ? (as pool player's are not known for their sublety, or lack of greed :rolleyes:) It appears every other player, would also be an odds on favorite against LeBron...Wouldn't the 'Vegas book' (not known to be idiot's)... have spotted a trend, and at some point...taken future matches "off the board" ?

Who knows what really happened FOR SURE !..A lie detector test, from the 2 principles, may not work at all...As neither Buddy nor Mike, would not want to admit to, (A) "Dogging it" that bad...or (B) "Butchering" an easy dump...:sorry

Paul "The Rest of the Story" McDuck"

I will totally accept that, as that is much more likely. Using parsimony as a guide, simple is usually the better explanation, and lebron making it to the finals legitimately is in fact much simpler. HE did of course play very well, as we all know, and they were races to 5.

On the other point, I had that same question for sure. But there is a very good answer to it. To get on the hill Lebron scratched on a 7 or something big (please don't "quote" me on that, i just remember it was a game where lebron messed up and buddy was just "forced" to get out).

If you see the scratch buddy put in side going one rail you will be a believer duck. IT was pretty masterful to go right in the side on it (tough to do), but it was something he'd never do, ever. I think that was the game that brought lebron onto the hill.

Anyway, hopefully you all get to see and we can discuss it then. If I ever get my hands on my own tapes :mad: i'll do what I can to get them "out there".
 

tylerdurden

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Dennis,

On your point 5, I don't think that is true. I am almost 100% certain that as you watch the tapes of the earlier matches, the commentators are touting that this is the first time pool is "on the board". Lebron went off at 20 to 1 at the START of the event. Of course he was not 20 to 1 only in the final. Forgive me if I misunderstood something you said.

I can see both arguments here, even though I kinda agreed with duck (yes, i may be a flip flopper), it is essentially a toss up for me. IT does seem crazy that they would all get together and agree, and then again, maybe it doesn't. ha. But that argument about the boards is true. I think the argument against it would be that they did perhaps see the guys were dumping lebron into the finals, but since there was legit money that had bet on the line already, they felt compelled to keep it up and take a loss (but only that ONE time,which is the travesty of it all).
 

tylerdurden

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"The maximum bet was $200 and the players could not buy tickets. That did not stop them from sending someone else to the window for them. Each winning $200 ticket paid $4200 and I think there were only eleven sold on Lebron before they changed the line to 9-1. The Mirage took a hit for 40K but when I discussed it with the head of the Sports Book, he laughed it off, saying it was small bananas. But they never made a line again in subsequent Challenges held there in future years" AZ

This exemplifies the point well. Why settle for such a small "score" for such a meager sum. That laugh is a perfect reaction: players screwing themselves forever (seemingly) for what amounts to a very small amount of money.
 

Scrzbill

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I don't quite understand why this keeps being drug through the mud. Put it away and let's move on. I feel like this is a bone someone wants to grind. If that is the case put it in members. This is not meant as a slight towards anyone. Let's(The royal let's) not be rehashing very old crap. Thanks, now back to the WWYS:lol
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Dennis,

On your point 5, I don't think that is true. I am almost 100% certain that as you watch the tapes of the earlier matches, the commentators are touting that this is the first time pool is "on the board". Lebron went off at 20 to 1 at the START of the event. Of course he was not 20 to 1 only in the final. Forgive me if I misunderstood something you said.

I can see both arguments here, even though I kinda agreed with duck (yes, i may be a flip flopper), it is essentially a toss up for me. IT does seem crazy that they would all get together and agree Why does this seem crazy? %100 of $6250 is much better than %100 of nothing. It was winner take all., and then again, maybe it doesn't. ha. But that argument about the boards is true. I think the argument against it would be that they did perhaps see the guys were dumping lebron into the finals, but since there was legit money that had bet on the line already, they felt compelled to keep it up and take a loss (but only that ONE time,which is the travesty of it all).

TD,

In my opening post of this thread where I quoted R.H. Gilmer (Professor) he clearly states that LeBron was 20:1 before the tourney started, I certainly don't know anymore than I have read about it and I certainly don't know what any announcers said about it.

I have seen several posts where a player or two went off at 7:1 which I think would be even money because there were 8 players involved. I'm not a bettor so I don't really know what all the odds mean.

Jay Helfert says this:

jay helfert said:
The maximum bet was $200 and the players could not buy tickets. That did not stop them from sending someone else to the window for them. Each winning $200 ticket paid $4200 and I think there were only eleven sold on Lebron before they changed the line to 9-1. The Mirage took a hit for 40K but when I discussed it with the head of the Sports Book, he laughed it off, saying it was small bananas. But they never made a line again in subsequent Challenges held there in future years.

This post below says B. Hall was an 8:5 favorite to win so there are all kinds of different things being said. I still have not seen one clearly stated post that said there were definitely odds posted for every match. It would certainly seen at cross purposes to "out" yourself early in the tourney if you were planning on letting LeBron make a bunch of cash for you at the end.

Terry Ardeno said:
It was orginally advertized as the "Pro Am Celebrity Billiards Challenge", an event promoted by Billiards International. Then, Matt Braun decided to drop the amateurs players & keep the 8 pro players, who then played a single elimination, winner take all mini tournament.

It was held at the Mirage Hotel-Casino in Las Vegas.

The players were Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Allen Hopkins, David Howard, Kim Davenport & Mike LeBron.

Hall was the 8/5 favorite to win, LeBron was a 20-1 bet.

Howard beat Varner 5-0, Davenport beat Sigel 5-4, Hall beat Hopkins 5-3 & LeBron beat Rempe 5-3.

The semis were Hall beating Davenport & LeBron beating Howard.

In the finals, LeBron won an extended race to 9 by the score of 9-8.

As to your wondering whether or not this really happened, Jay Helfert confirms here, albeit leaving out AH.

jay helfert said:
1991 at the Mirage Hotel. It was the first Challenge of Champions and I was the TD and ref for all the matches. Yes, the finals between Buddy and Mike looked a little funny at times, but there was nothing I could do except watch and wonder about it. Everyone knew Mike went off at 20-1. I had told some people that it was a bad line for a player like Mike in a short race format like this. I knew anyone could win it, they were all great players. Afterward I found out that seven of the eight players had made a deal.


Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I don't quite understand why this keeps being drug through the mud. Put it away and let's move on. I feel like this is a bone someone wants to grind. If that is the case put it in members. This is not meant as a slight towards anyone. Let's(The royal let's) not be rehashing very old crap. Thanks, now back to the WWYS:lol

Bill,

This thread has been on the open forum for almost 8 months and nobody has had a problem with it. There is a 282 post thread on the All-Zaniness site about the very same thing.http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=298512

Some people still don't believe this even happened even though people like Jay Helfert (on AZ) and Freddy (here) confirmed it. This is why it should be out in the open, dirt & filth don't do too well in the light of day.


Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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Without quoting anybody, I'll just say that I do think it is important to learn from your history. So yes, rehashing it seems more than appropriate as far as I am concerned. And I honestly have no real bone to grind. I just think if things aren't discussed, and shown for how damaging they really were, they will have more of a tendency to happen again. In that respect threads like this deserve credit.

Think about what happened here. This was a potentially huge moment in pool. People can correct me if I'm off a tad, but this was the first 100k dollar prize in pool. It really was potentially big.
 
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Del

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I don’t mean to offend anyone on this board. Pool and billiards in the U.S. have always been perceived as a “dirty” business. The media does not consider it a serious sport and never will. Unless things change, national advertisers outside the pool industry just see no value in supporting it. Once in a while ESPN will feature a couple hours of pool when nothing else is happening. 99% of the sponsors are pool related businesses. Awhile back there was some talk about a billiard channel and that never happened. Movies were made about pool. Books were written, most of which depict a dark and depressing picture. We love the game and we are addicted to it. But the stigma has been there. It is always there. It is what it is no matter how we sugar coat it. But it does not have to be this way. Snooker is big business in England. Why not pool?

I am sure nobody here was surprised to hear about what happened in Vegas. It has happened more often than we like to admit. It happens in big and small tournaments, in small and big money matches, pros and amateurs alike. Earl didn’t want to have anything to do with the Vegas deal and that was a good thing. I’d like to know, however, what really happened in Hong Kong when he played Efren a race to 120 for 100K winner takes all. Very late in the match they took a 30 minutes break with Earl ahead 17 games. He played flawlessly for 2 and a half days up to that point. It was the best 9 ball pool that I have ever seen. What happened after the break gave it away. Watch the last few games: Earl scratched 3 times, let the cue ball fly off the table, missed several easy shots, played fast and recklessly and ended up loosing 117 to 120. Efren scratched 3 times, took a long difficult combo shot instead of playing an easy safety and miscued on an easy 8 ball. I have never seen him miscue before, not Efren, especially when 100 grand is on the table. Efren came back to tie the score at 111 each. What happened next could not be more conspicuous. Efren misses an easy carom on the 9 ball leaving it a couple of inches from the pocket. With the cue ball less than 2 feet away, Earl sinks the 9 ball in sending the white ball dangerously towards the side pocket, missing it by a hair. They kept the game close with Efren staying ahead by 1 or 2 games then they tied again at 117 each. Earl scratched again during the next game and Efren missed an easy ball in hand. 100K winner takes all, 2 games left in the match and the great Efren Reyes misses a ball in hand. I was always curious about how much money was in the hat from side betting. The match is on you tube, and I have all 13 tapes. You draw your own conclusion.

I wonder why they were never invited back.
 

Alfie Taylor

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Once in las vegas...

Once in las vegas...

The only story I ever heard about "tournament dumping", or the attempt, was when Eddie Taylor was about to play Ronnie Allen in the Jansco Las Vegas One Pocket finals. I was there. Anyway, Amarillo Slim told Eddie he could "bet five or ten thousand on Ronnie" (wink, wink. Nod, nod. Nudge, nudge). Eddie, being a man of unfaltering principal, told him. "Well, Slim. If you think he can win you should bet it".
Down to last game, three balls on the table and Eddie needs them all...One two rail and two end rails and it was oversville.
Isn't it fortunate we're involved with pool and not brain surgery?
Keep it real. Alfie
 

Scrzbill

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Bill,

This thread has been on the open forum for almost 8 months and nobody has had a problem with it. There is a 282 post thread on the All-Zaniness site about the very same thing.http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=298512

Some people still don't believe this even happened even though people like Jay Helfert (on AZ) and Freddy (here) confirmed it. This is why it should be out in the open, dirt & filth don't do too well in the light of day.


Dennis

People that don't believe this is true are the same people who think trickle down is a viable economic engine. This was bad for pool and you can't (Normal people) agree with what was done at all. This type of behavior is not exclusive to this incident though the whole idea of rewarding behavior for hustling (stealing) is what the HOF is all about to some. It brings shame to the game and we should work to find some way to clean up the image of pool being a place for pond scum screwing others out of their dough. AZ can do what they want, we are not them. Just saying, lets move on, thats all.
 

BackPocket9Ball

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2. Including that LeBron, (who was not all THAT weak)...may have wound up in the finale "legitimately"...

LeBron was not the equal of the other 7 guys. Get real.

Cowboy Dennis,

How is this comment off the mark, regardless of all the conspiracy theories touted in this thread??? LeBron also, if I am correct, won the US Open three years earlier in 1988.

Or was this the result of a series of well-calculated and pre-meditated dumps as well?
 

ChrisBanks

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People will do things for money that are much worse than dumping a pool tournament. So even if it is true, so what? What did you expect? Take a look at the world and then tell me that you are surprised if a man chooses to dump a pool tournament in order to make a few thousand dollars.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Cowboy Dennis,

How is this comment off the mark, regardless of all the conspiracy theories touted in this thread??? LeBron also, if I am correct, won the US Open three years earlier in 1988.

Or was this the result of a series of well-calculated and pre-meditated dumps as well?

It is simply my opinion that LeBron couldn't have ended up in the finals on-the-square. That's all.

P.S. Did you notice who LeBron beat to win the 1988 U.S. Open? One of the guys involved in this dump, that's who. I don't believe anything I see in a poolroom or tournament and the only games I ever knew were on the level were the ones I was playing.

Dennis
 

Scrzbill

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It is simply my opinion that LeBron couldn't have ended up in the finals on-the-square. That's all.

P.S. Did you notice who LeBron beat to win the 1988 U.S. Open? One of the guys involved in this dump, that's who. I don't believe anything I see in a poolroom or tournament and the only games I ever knew were on the level were the ones I was playing.

Dennis

That is certainly a true statement about the only games I know are on the level are the ones I play.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Why would you search the internet, to seek out the one "OBSCURE" person who also, LIKE YOU, is obsessed, with "Dumping Scandal's ?..:confused:

:eek:

Ducky,

Before you go insulting the man any further let me tell you something; R.H. Gilmer was a roomowner in Miss. and he was a well-respected man in the world of pool from everything I've read about him. He was not "obscure" nor was he "obsessed" with a dumping scandal. If you read the link I furnished you'll see that he started the thread to discuss his feelings on "splits, takedowns & savers" being wrong and only mentioned the "dump" when someone asked him about it. It was not his primary reason for the thread.http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong

Mr. Gilmer (Professor) was a man of character and strong feelings about right & wrong. He passed away almost 9 months ago as was noted by Pelican.
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6526

Feel free to insult me all you want but please leave him out of it.

Dennis
 
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Cary

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Cowboy Dennis,

How is this comment off the mark, regardless of all the conspiracy theories touted in this thread??? LeBron also, if I am correct, won the US Open three years earlier in 1988.

Or was this the result of a series of well-calculated and pre-meditated dumps as well?

It's been a few months since I looked it up (May/Jume 1991 Snap Magazine), but as I recall LeBron went hill/hill against Hall in the finals of the $35,000 1991 Williard International 9-ball Classic (there were w-a-a-ay more than 8 players in that one) shortly before the Challenge of Champions. Whoever set the line on him at 20-1 was......well, probably not thinking clearly and/or was in on conspiracy.
 
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