Mike Surber vs. Cliff Joyner 2007 D.C.C.

It's 2-2 in games and they're going to three. Cliff's shot after Mike scratches. Cliff has pocket 'A' & ball-in-hand. What would you do?

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

Cowboy Dennis said:

It's 2-2 in games and they're going to three. Cliff's shot after Mike scratches. Cliff has pocket 'A' & ball-in-hand. What would you do?

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if im in stroke i shoot the spot shot then bank the 13 . for my speed here is my shot
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv1kADW2kKgX4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MaLq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv3haLq3hbau4hXpQ1kADW2kKgX3kWRj3kRto4kboR2kbQm2kTQW4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MaLq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv3haLq3hbau4hXpQ1kADW2kKgX3kWRj3kRto4kboR2kbQm2kTQW4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

Cowboy Dennis said:

It's 2-2 in games and they're going to three. Cliff's shot after Mike scratches. Cliff has pocket 'A' & ball-in-hand. What would you do?

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

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Something like this maybe:

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO2PXFW4QdOv4aALX4acAo2kXFW3kBqK3kEcg3kIMC3kLfS3kPvg3kbJB4kAWF4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

The 13 was closer to the corner ... only 3/4 to 1 ball out of the jaw

The 13 was closer to the corner ... only 3/4 to 1 ball out of the jaw

I would power in the spot shot and move the 13. A stone-fool could not miss the spot shot AND fail to move the 13.

I would not do what Mr. Cliff did.

Mr. Mike was already done ... for whatever reason ... he had lost his stroke somewhere along the path (he did start out on a pace to grill Cliff). He even allowed Cliff to move on him spotting a ball off-line.

Yep ...watched this Saturday ....

i dont know about wanting to hit the 13 but spot shot and leaving the cue ball on the short rail after drawing across is rather easy and if you miss the spot shot you should even not sell out.
a very basic one pocket shot is the spot shot and putting the cue ball where you want it anyplace on the table close by.

With the ball count as such, you have to shot the spot shot. With positioning the cb and english you can come in behind the 3 or get lucky and move it towards your pocket.---Smitty[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO2PFiR4QdOv4aALX4acpu3hYuq3hbis4hObq2kFiR3kBBO3kTAm3kXou3kXfN4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ2uAIV@[/CUETABLE]

That's a good shot, Senor-- especially on good cloth like at the DCC. Even if he pockets the 6 and bumps the 13, it's not a bad shot. Otherwise he could cross the 13, then shoot the 6.

I have the DVD, but I don't remember what Cliff did. I'm still reluctant yet to watch DVDs of Mike. It's too saddening. ~Doc

senor said:

Something like this maybe:
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO2PXFW4QdOv4aALX4acAo2kXFW3kBqK3kEcg3kIMC3kLfS3kPvg3kbJB4kAWF4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

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Cowboy Dennis said:

It's 2-2 in games and they're going to three. Cliff's shot after Mike scratches. Cliff has pocket 'A' & ball-in-hand. What would you do?

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Apparently Cliff had been up all night gambling and not thinking too straight. He felt better playing safe in this layout.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO2PIcf4QdOv1cVdD1cUGM3hYuq3hWSj1hXGa1hbyE1iYEq1ibiO1iXgu1idoA1jTIO1jPhb2kIcf3kasM3kaTY3kbJl3kRUg3qLTfJOYNER_KNOCKED_THE_13_AWAY.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

What does he know ?....

What does he know ?....

Cowboy Dennis said:

Apparently Cliff had been up all night gambling and not thinking too straight. He felt better playing safe in this layout.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO2PIcf4QdOv1cVdD1cUGM3hYuq3hWSj1hXGa1hbyE1iYEq1ibiO1iXgu1idoA1jTIO1jPhb2kIcf3kasM3kaTY3kbJl3kRUg3qLTfJOYNER_KNOCKED_THE_13_AWAY.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

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Or his underdeveloped [sic] one pocket brain, convinced him that spot shots are NOT always "gimme's"...

lll said:

if im in stroke i shoot the spot shot then bank the 13 . for my speed here is my shot
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MYuq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv1kADW2kKgX4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MaLq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv3haLq3hbau4hXpQ1kADW2kKgX3kWRj3kRto4kboR2kbQm2kTQW4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@3AVmM4BGkM1CXId3DTRL4EJNM4FALX4GRFL1HVdD4ILyM1JbQQ4KOcL3LQgL3MaLq1NYEq1OTIO1PADW4QdOv3haLq3hbau4hXpQ1kADW2kKgX3kWRj3kRto4kboR2kbQm2kTQW4qGVUJOYNER_HAS_POCKET_'A'._IT'S_2-2_GOING_TO_3._SURBER_HAS_JUST_SCRATCHED,_CLIFF_HAS_BIH._WHAT_WOULD_YOU_DO?&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

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Larry,

Got your PM...I'll answer here. I was only gigging RBL (in post #9) re; the spot shot...I'm afraid even I would have to fire at the spot shot, just like Senor described it.
If I was feeling real doggy, I might try to follow the spot shot, and remove the ball by his hole..,but drawing the ball is the right shot IMO.

Your shot would probably be the least likely, (for me)...I would probably shoot Cliff's choice first...sorry.

I can't believe Cliff played safe, given the score. I'm assuming he won the set though, didn't he ?

PS..For some reason, I am more comfortable drawing a spot shot, when shooting at the right hand pocket, than I am at the left one. I think most right hander's are, aren't they ? (Rod, Senor, Ghost ?)...Maybe that was why Cliff passed on it.

SJDinPHX said:

Larry,

Got your PM...I'll answer here. I was only gigging RBL (in post #9) re; the spot shot...I'm afraid even I would have to fire at the spot shot, just like Senor described it.
If I was feeling real doggy, I might try to follow the spot shot, and remove the ball by his hole..,but drawing the ball is the right shot IMO.

Your shot would probably be the least likely, (for me)...I would probably shoot Cliff's choice first...sorry.

I can't believe Cliff played safe, given the score. I'm assuming he won the set though, didn't he ?

PS..For some reason, I am more comfortable drawing a spot shot, when shooting at the right hand pocket, than I am at the left one. I think most right hander's are, aren't they ? (Rod, Senor, Ghost ?)...Maybe that was why Cliff passed on it.

Click to expand...

I haven't played in a tournament but I understand it's a different mind set. If you screw up you don't just rack'em up and play another. These men were 2 games apiece going to 3. With a lead like he had I'm not suprised he took a conservative position.
Rod < ------------Knows all the guys on here that say the spot shots are hangers disagree.
PS; I always found Cliff to be rather conservative in his shot selection.
PPS; I'm not comfortable drawing it at either pocket. I'm a few notches below that speed.

SJDinPHX said:

PS..For some reason, I am more comfortable drawing a spot shot, when shooting at the right hand pocket, than I am at the left one. I think most right hander's are, aren't they ? (Rod, Senor, Ghost ?)...Maybe that was why Cliff passed on it.

Click to expand...

i guess one more thing i dont have in common with the upper level player is i shoot the spot shot better to pocket A (left pocket) than right pocket with or without draw

lll said:

i guess one more thing i dont have in common with the upper level player is i shoot the spot shot better to pocket A (left pocket) than right pocket with or without draw

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Larry, you may be left eye dominant, have you ever checked ?...A lot of right hander's are.

I've heard a lot of golf announcer's comment on the fact, that most R.H. pro golfer's, prefer right to left breaking putts, over left to right breaking putts. I know I sure do...but I don't know why.
I do know I am R. eye dominant, good thing too, I can't see s**t out of my left eye.

SJDinPHX said:

Larry, you may be left eye dominant, have you ever checked ?...A lot of right hander's are.

I've heard a lot of golf announcer's comment on the fact, that most R.H. pro golfer's, prefer right to left breaking putts, over left to right breaking putts. I know I sure do...but I don't know why.
I do know I am R. eye dominant, good thing too, I can't see s**t out of my left eye.

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I also prefer spot shots toward the left pocket -- I believe I am left eye dominant too. I often break toward the left pocket too (given an even-rolling table) and cut balls more comfortably to the left -- that's probably all for the same left-eye reason.

SJDinPHX said:

Larry, you may be left eye dominant, have you ever checked ?...A lot of right hander's are.

I've heard a lot of golf announcer's comment on the fact, that most R.H. pro golfer's, prefer right to left breaking putts, over left to right breaking putts. I know I sure do...but I don't know why.
I do know I am R. eye dominant, good thing too, I can't see s**t out of my left eye.

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never checked my eyes for dominance (how do you do that?)/
p.s. like the new avatar.
p.p.s. if i pm you and you dont have any thing nice to say (dennis already reamed me via pm on that shot but my egotiscal self wanted another opinion ( i didnt doubt you dennis ) please dont do it in public . you can pm me back. thanks . larry

lll said:

never checked my eyes for dominance (how do you do that?)/
p.s. like the new avatar.
p.p.s. if i pm you and you dont have any thing nice to say (dennis already reamed me via pm on that shot but my egotiscal self wanted another opinion ( i didnt doubt you dennis ) please dont do it in public . you can pm me back. thanks . larry

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Sorry, didn't know I said anything bad

A very simple "eye dominance" test is this Larry;

Place a quarter on the floor, and stand up...at about your belt level, form a circle with your thumb, and first finger...KEEPING BOTH EYES OPEN, (important)...sight down through the circle you've made, till you've centered the quarter....Now close your left eye, if the quarter stays where it is, you are right eye dominant.
If you close your right eye, and the quarter stays centered...you are left eye dominant...if the quarter moves out of sight,(to your left)... when you close your right eye again...you have confirmed that you are right eye dominant.

You are supposed to keep both eyes open, when sighting down a rifle barrell, (some people do close their non-dominant eye out of habit) Same principle applies...if you close your right eye, then the gun sight at the end of the barrell, will move way to the left...if you close your left eye...you will not notice any difference, because you are only really sighting out of your dominant eye, (with both eyes open) and everything will look normal.

Hope its not too confusing, but its the first time I ever tried writing it down.. OK back on topic ! Hi-jack aborted.

PS If you have any problems, PM me, so I can hurt your feelers again..heh,heh (JK)

SJDinPHX said:

PS..For some reason, I am more comfortable drawing a spot shot, when shooting at the right hand pocket, than I am at the left one. I think most right hander's are, aren't they ? (Rod, Senor, Ghost ?)...Maybe that was why Cliff passed on it.

Click to expand...

Yep, me too..I much prefer shooting a medium to long shot, using draw, to the left side pocket....strangely though, if I'm using follow, then the pocket doesn't matter to me...

As for Cliff's conservative shot choice - if in a hill-hill-in-games situation...I'd be considering these variables >>>

If the shooter is the better mover and banker, then I like him choosing that safety in that situation/ball count....but if the opponent is the better mover and banker then I like the shooter going for the spot shot....and if the pockets were super tight - (4") then I'd also like the safety.
- Ghost

One Pocket Ghost said:

Yep, me too..I much prefer shooting a medium to long shot, using draw, to the left side pocket....strangely though, if I'm using follow, then the pocket doesn't matter to me...

As for Cliff's conservative shot choice - if in a hill-hill-in-games situation...I'd be considering these variables >>>

If the shooter is the better mover and banker, then I like him choosing that safety in that situation/ball count....but if the opponent is the better mover and banker then I like the shooter going for the spot shot....and if the pockets were super tight - (4") then I'd also like the safety.
- Ghost

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I notice that since Mike had just scratched, this was a real tight game (and like you said, hill-hill, correct?) Given that, now that Cliff has found himself up five to three, it sure appears that he really wanted to just do battle one ball at a time -- liking his odds from there.

NH Steve said:

I notice that since Mike had just scratched, this was a real tight game (and like you said, hill-hill, correct?) Given that, now that Cliff has found himself up five to three, it sure appears that he really wanted to just do battle one ball at a time -- liking his odds from there.

Click to expand...

Nothing really wrong with Cliff's decision. He may have just been feeling a little unsure of his shot making at that time...that happens a lot in 1P, when you have been bumping safeties for a while....But, if I shot as straight as he usually does...I believe I would be trying to get
to where I needed only one ball...with minimal risk. (after all spot shots are "gimme's", aren't they Beatle ?).

I'm sure Mike did not just roll over and give up, and it looks like a wedge game may have developed..In fact, if the WEI is accurate, Mike has a free one railer at his hole, (on the 6 ball) if the 13 wound up where diagramed. (PS..nobody has said who won ?)

SJDinPHX said:

In fact, if the WEI is accurate, Mike has a free one railer at his hole, (on the 6 ball) if the 13 wound up where diagramed. (PS..nobody has said who won ?)

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The 14 went in on Cliffs safety(as I diagrammed) tying up the 6 ball. Cliff ended up winning the game and set.

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