Fargo Rate and one pocket?

crabbcatjohn

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So the Fargo Rate guy just posted on AZ in the DO-Tony thread that his software just correctly predicted the day 2 score of the current DO-Tony match. He also states he now believes it works for one pocket. I posted my thoughts over there but what do you think?
 

Patrick Johnson

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So the Fargo Rate guy just posted on AZ in the DO-Tony thread that his software just correctly predicted the day 2 score of the current DO-Tony match. He also states he now believes it works for one pocket. I posted my thoughts over there but what do you think?
What Mike Page actually said is:

"...the Fargo Ratings ... start to become more relevant" for one pocket.

I've known Mike for many years. He's a scrupulously fair and modest guy who's always been more careful about his claims than his critics have been.

pj
chgo
 

lll

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I think Fargo rate reflects rotation cueing skills
That being said there is no indicator of 1p knowledge
Nor is it set up to compare / factor in players onepocket results ( I don’t think )
Therefore I don’t see how except in a very general way it could spredict. 1 p result
 

Patrick Johnson

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I think Fargo rate reflects rotation cueing skills
That being said there is no indicator of 1p knowledge
Nor is it set up to compare / factor in players onepocket results ( I don’t think )
Therefore I don’t see how except in a very general way it could spredict. 1 p result
Here's Mike's complete statement about that:

"I think what happens is as that as both players become sophisticated in [one pocket], the Fargo Ratings --which I think we should think of as reflecting core skills in some way, start to become more relevant."

He also said in a follow up answer to crabbcatjohn:

"It is not clear how relevant Fargo Ratings are for one-pocket--a game where some specialized knowledge/skill plays a big role."

FargoRate only uses win/loss stats to calculate its ratings, and if A beats B in another game it doesn't necessarily mean A beats B in one pocket. Maybe one pocket should be rated separately from other games so we're comparing apples-to-apples skillsets.

pj
chgo
 
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crabbcatjohn

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What Mike Page actually said is:

"...the Fargo Ratings ... start to become more relevant" for one pocket.

I've known Mike for many years. He's a scrupulously fair and modest guy who's always been more careful about his claims than his critics have been.

pj
chgo

Same thing i said Pat, just different wording. I guess i should have put in the direct quote. Thanks
 

unoperro

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Fargorate to onepocket?
Probably more applicable then many think. I agree with Mike, fargorate reflects core skills.
Remember the story of Fats playing Mosconi 1pkt? Fats said he doesnt know the game at all,he keeps running 8 and out;)
 

crabbcatjohn

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Here's Mike's complete statement about that:

"I think what happens is as that as both players become sophisticated in [one pocket], the Fargo Ratings --which I think we should think of as reflecting core skills in some way, start to become more relevant."

He also said in a follow up answer to crabcatjohn:

"It is not clear how relevant Fargo Ratings are for one-pocket--a game where some specialized knowledge/skill plays a big role."

FargoRate only uses win/loss stats to calculate its ratings, and if A beats B in another game it doesn't necessarily mean A beats B in one pocket. Maybe one pocket should be rated separately from other games so we're comparing apples-to-apples skillsets.

pj
chgo
Just showing snippets of his posts and nothing on what or why i commented on his post in the first doesn't seem real fair to me Pat. And i was just asking here what peoples thoughts were. I didn't agree or disagree if it works in any post, anywhere.
 

Patrick Johnson

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Same thing i said Pat, just different wording. I guess i should have put in the direct quote. Thanks
I thought "it works" and "it's becoming more relevant" were likely to be interpreted differently. Thanks for clarifying.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

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Just showing snippets of his posts and nothing on what or why i commented on his post in the first doesn't seem real fair to me Pat. And i was just asking here what peoples thoughts were. I didn't agree or disagree if it works in any post, anywhere.
OK, here's your whole post, context and all (with the parts I object to bolded):

"Thats certainly interesting... It kinda ticks me off you can make these outrageous claims when a particular match score happens to work for your software promoting agenda. If its so accurate what happened with Fargo Rate in their last match... If you would have at least mentioned the last match in your post it would have been nice. According to what you are promoting Dennis should have won the last one 40-26 You have certainly lost any credibility you might have had in my mind."

Mike didn't make any outrageous claims that I saw - but I agree the way he presented the outcome of that one match could be misinterpreted.

Anyway, I agree with you and Mike that FargoRate might not (yet) work as well for one pocket handicapping as for other games.

Peace, John,

pj
chgo
 

vapros

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Referring to a recent post by Jimmy B - I have no idea what you're talking about, so here's a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head. :heh
 

crabbcatjohn

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OK, here's your whole post, context and all (with the parts I object to bolded):

"Thats certainly interesting... It kinda ticks me off you can make these outrageous claims when a particular match score happens to work for your software promoting agenda. If its so accurate what happened with Fargo Rate in their last match... If you would have at least mentioned the last match in your post it would have been nice. According to what you are promoting Dennis should have won the last one 40-26 You have certainly lost any credibility you might have had in my mind."

Mike didn't make any outrageous claims that I saw - but I agree the way he presented the outcome of that one match could be misinterpreted.

Anyway, I agree with you and Mike that FargoRate might not (yet) work as well for one pocket handicapping as for other games.

Peace, John,

pj
chgo
My problem was his post read very self serving based on a 1/3 sampling size he "found interesting" that exactly fit his system and didn't mention the 2/3 that didn't. Peace out, Pat
 
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J SCHWARZ

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JJ made an interesting statement last night on the stream. He stated that if he could run the ball for 5 yards every play why ever risk passing the ball. You have guys like Jeff Deluna who are some of the best rotation players in the world with extemly high Fargo Rating but when he was at the Scotty Townsend Memorial 1p tourney he was almost helpless playing 1p. There are usually one or two right shots playin 9ball or 10ball and Fargo does a good job of rating their shot making and how they hold up in tournament pressure inmho. But how do you rate a players over all pool IQ and how it transcends into the nuances of the game of 1p. How do you rate the knowledge of twist backs, combo banks with collision induced throw, overall shot selection, stack knowledge, and knowing how to break someone down in 1p. The amount of data needed and and knowledge of endless situations needed to do that is mind boggling to calculate.
 
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Cary

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I thought there was just a thread which seemed to reach the conclusion (somewhat disputed) that at the top levels, execution/shooting/ball running ability begins to overtake knowledge/moving or at the least become more critical. It seems to follow that at the top levels of one pocket FargoRate would be more accurate. No?
 

Patrick Johnson

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JJ made an interesting statement last night on the stream. He stated that if he could run the ball for 5 yards every play why ever risk passing the ball. You have guys like Jeff Deluna who are some of the best rotation players in the world with extemly high Fargo Rating but when he was at the Scotty Townsend Memorial 1p tourney he was almost helpless playing 1p. There are usually one or two right shots playin 9ball or 10ball and Fargo does a good job of rating their shot making and how they hold up in tournament pressure inmho. But how do you rate a players over all pool IQ and how it transcends into the nuances of the game of 1p. How do you rate the knowledge of twist backs, combo banks with collision induced throw, overall shot selection, stack knowledge, and knowing how to break someone down in 1p. The amount of data needed and and knowledge of endless situations needed to do that is mind boggling to calculate.
I think if FargoRate only included 1P matches the win/loss data would reflect the skills special to 1P.

I suppose FargoRate's rankings would be most accurate if all the different games were scored separately, but the accuracy of the rankings are also heavily dependent on having lots of match results, so maybe we have to wait on that refinement. Meanwhile 1P is the most different, so using FargoRate rankings for 1P handicapping probably deserves some skepticism, at least for now.

pj
chgo
 

NH Steve

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How did it work out for Mr Fargo the last DO vs Tony session lol

OK now I read more of the thread so I see I was not the only one mentioning this.
 
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crabbcatjohn

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How did it work out for Mr Fargo the last DO vs Tony session lol

OK now I read more of the thread so I see I was not the only one mentioning this.

You wasn't. I did in my first post over there. I ended up graciously bowing out of the conversation so as not waste my day debating it. Wasn't worth spending my time on today...lol
 
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