breaks: kick bank and frozen head ball

jack

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May 24, 2004
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38
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Washington, DC
I was talking with a friend recently about breaks, and even though he understands the standard break, he's been trying the one rail kick and freeze in the stack style break...basically, he's not confident with the standard break yet, so in the meantime, he's seen that this break isn't too bad...

I mentioned this on azbilliards and was told its basically a suckers break...evidently there's an easy way to get out of it? Anyone mind showing me, i'm curious.....same thing with rolling the cue and freezing it directly on the first ball of the rack...
 

Lunchmoney

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May 24, 2004
Messages
74
From
Washington State
jack said:
I was talking with a friend recently about breaks, and even though he understands the standard break, he's been trying the one rail kick and freeze in the stack style break...basically, he's not confident with the standard break yet, so in the meantime, he's seen that this break isn't too bad...

I mentioned this on azbilliards and was told its basically a suckers break...evidently there's an easy way to get out of it? Anyone mind showing me, i'm curious.....same thing with rolling the cue and freezing it directly on the first ball of the rack...

I don't know if I would call it a suckers break, but it is a risky break. Done right though it can put an opponent an a trap that is in no way easy to get out of. I play a guy a lot who uses this break exclusively and I have looked at some really difficult traps. When he hits it right he send several balls to his hole and freezes the cue ball against the stack on my side. He always gets this self satisfied smirk on his face when he hits one. When he misses though, he usually loses. Then I have the smirk.

Lunchmoney
 

Smorgass Bored

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May 24, 2004
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178
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Tampa
I'd been using the side rail kick break for over a year, because I was tired of breaking balls towards my opponents hole. As noted previously in this thread, when done propery it can send balls towards your pocket, while leaving the cueball frozen to the stack. This limits the possible return shots from your opponent. I was hitting this break pretty sporty on the Robertson tables, but wasn't getting the desired outcome on the Diamond and Gabriels table. When I asked about this type break previously, Grady Mathews answered that the top players and Pros don't use this break, because you can't/don't make a ball on the break and can't run eight and out.. I'm now breaking in a conventional manner and I have to agree wih Grady..
Actually, nothing helps my game more than getting 20-3 from the top players.... imo
 

jrhendy

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May 24, 2004
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5,717
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Placerville, CA
One Pocket Break

One Pocket Break

I have never seen anyone get the $$ using this break. Worst case scenario, you take a scratch, and you have more balls closer to your hole that the regular break. The first time I saw it was in Denver and I was giving the owner of Colfax Billiards 10 to something and the break. He slammed into the long rail and into the stack and left me a ball straight in. I looked at him like he was stupid & he said "Just get up and run 10". I had to pull up because the game was too tough, but not because of his break.
 

hemicudas

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
From
Jackson, Miss.
Kick break

Kick break

jrhendy said:
I have never seen anyone get the $$ using this break. Worst case scenario, you take a scratch, and you have more balls closer to your hole that the regular break. The first time I saw it was in Denver and I was giving the owner of Colfax Billiards 10 to something and the break. He slammed into the long rail and into the stack and left me a ball straight in. I looked at him like he was stupid & he said "Just get up and run 10". I had to pull up because the game was too tough, but not because of his break.
I have to agree with you, John. On a 9' table I don't remember anyone getting the $$$ with the kick break. 8' table I have. In the 70s most of the tables in Jackson, MS were 8'ers. Just a hand full of 9'ers. Bobby Madrid busted virtually everyone who played one pocket in town using the kick break on the 8'ers. At this time there were no real players in Jackson. Reed was just a kid. Bill Stack only played bar boxes.

When Bobby left everyone in town was kick breaking, for a while. Until they found out you had to hit it perfectly or give up everything. Bobby told me he never used the kick break on a 9' or 10' table. Yes, I tried it with very little success on any table, lol.

P.S. Forgot, Marcus Collier lived in Jackson then. Was from Ft. Worth. He kick broke the 8'ers well too. You old guys might remember Marcus as being the greatest Bumper Pool player on the planet, before it died.
 
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NH Steve

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Apr 25, 2004
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12,283
From
New Hampshire
jack said:
I was talking with a friend recently about breaks, and even though he understands the standard break, he's been trying the one rail kick and freeze in the stack style break...basically, he's not confident with the standard break yet, so in the meantime, he's seen that this break isn't too bad...

I mentioned this on azbilliards and was told its basically a suckers break...evidently there's an easy way to get out of it? Anyone mind showing me, i'm curious.....same thing with rolling the cue and freezing it directly on the first ball of the rack...
I played Norm 'The Farmer' Webber every week for about a year and he exclusively used that break -- of course he wan't really known as a One Pocket player :) Playing him regularly did give me a lot of practice at getting out of that break, though. The standard return IMO -- when they hit that break well, which is by no means every time -- is to kick. You might need to kick the long way, or the short way, depending on where the most threatening ball is.

If their most threatening ball is in a good position for a 'ticky' near the long rail, then a long rail kick something like this might be good. Their pocket is 'A'. The idea is to kick to a little behind their ball, nudging it off the long rail and leaving the cue nearly hanging in their pocket, using the ball you just nudged as cover, to prevent them from banking the ball on your side and make them work a little:
START(
%AO3O8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK0M1
%KI1Q8%LJ0N1%ML5S7%NF7Z1%OF9K0%PN0M4%QA5[2%UL2Z9%Vr8S1%Wr4S1
%XO0M5%YH4Z8%ZJ5[0%[D5W3%\E8Y4%eB5a0
)END

If their threatening balls are farther away from their pocket, it gives you a bigger area to kick towards. Sometimes you can even avoid the intentional scratch penalty by grazing a ball in the stack, but don't risk blowing the safety to avoid the penalty (unless you are at risk of 3 scratches!):
START(
%AO3O8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK0M1
%KI1Q8%LJ0N1%MM4V8%NF6U8%OF9K0%PM7M7%QA5[2%UP1Z5%Vr3I4%We5D1
%XN8M4%Yr2H4%Zf8C8%eB4a3
)END

Often the short rail kick is available too. The idea on the short rail kick is generally to get under or behind their balls -- which can make it tough for them to come back with any kind of strong move:
START(
%AO3O8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK0M1
%KI1Q8%LJ0N1%MM4V8%NG1X6%OI4K8%PN0M3%QA5[2%UC9T0%VJ2C7%WJ5D6
%XM4L0%YF2Z2%ZC8U0%eB4`4
)END

Basically, any of these kicks might cost you a ball to get out of their break, but your opponent shouldn't really have strong position left to keep hammering you, because the rail-first break itself doesn't tend to open the rack that well. Any of these kicks are good to get comfortable with for anytime you are buried up against the stack, not just responding to the rail-first break...
 

Chris Cass

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
48
jack said:
I was talking with a friend recently about breaks, and even though he understands the standard break, he's been trying the one rail kick and freeze in the stack style break...basically, he's not confident with the standard break yet, so in the meantime, he's seen that this break isn't too bad...

I mentioned this on azbilliards and was told its basically a suckers break...evidently there's an easy way to get out of it? Anyone mind showing me, i'm curious.....same thing with rolling the cue and freezing it directly on the first ball of the rack...

Hi Jack,

I don't care for this break in the least. I can stick the cb to the rack consistanly and I think it's a sellout break myself. Unless you have a opponent that's not very good. I'm talking 9 ft. This break always seems to give you less opportunity to run as mentioned plus you lose out on the advantage of the break and IMHO that's 1 1/2 balls the breakers favorite. Maybe 2 even.

I've had a guy play this break on me that was about 3 ball different between us in my favor and he could stick the cb too. Well, I seem to remember that when the wing ball moves out it caused a shift on my side leaving a dead ball many times into my hole.

I like the conventional way and you have to agree with Grady no matter what. He's like the one pocket guru of all times. I'd be interested to understand why someone would do this unless your opponent was weaker. Kind of like the safe break in 9 ball. I would kill my opponents with this break that were much lesser players. I sure wouldn't try it with someone a ball lower than myself. Same difference in my thoughts.

Now, the real question is. What would seem to you to be the best break? That might be another thread. :)

Well, that's my .02.,

C.C.~~ :)
 

D Money1644

New Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
4
From
kaysville, UT
can someone diagram the standard break for me, pretty please? i think i saw it on here a little while back but can't seem to find it now. i tried the kick break and didn't like it but i can't get the standard break to work right. what kind of english do you use? where do you place the cueball before shooting? how hard do you hit it? as you can probably guess, im having little success at all. thanks a lot.
 

hemicudas

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
From
Jackson, Miss.
Split hit the 1st 2 balls

Split hit the 1st 2 balls

D Money1644 said:
can someone diagram the standard break for me, pretty please? i think i saw it on here a little while back but can't seem to find it now. i tried the kick break and didn't like it but i can't get the standard break to work right. what kind of english do you use? where do you place the cueball before shooting? how hard do you hit it? as you can probably guess, im having little success at all. thanks a lot.
D., the "Professor" comes on here occasionally and I bow to his superior knowledge but I have been breaking like this for ever. Split hit the first two balls with top inside english. Something like this. START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg7E1%WO5N3%Xf9E3%YD1H3%ZN3N1
%]R2C8%^C2G2%e@9`5
)END. My top, inside english didn't show up but it should be there. Top left, in this case.
 
Last edited:

NH Steve

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Apr 25, 2004
Messages
12,283
From
New Hampshire
D Money1644 said:
can someone diagram the standard break for me, pretty please? i think i saw it on here a little while back but can't seem to find it now. i tried the kick break and didn't like it but i can't get the standard break to work right. what kind of english do you use? where do you place the cueball before shooting? how hard do you hit it? as you can probably guess, im having little success at all. thanks a lot.

What Hemi has diagramed is the standard One Pocket break, which can occasionally even pocket the corner ball, and almost always gives the breaker a distinct advantage. I've added a couple of details to Hemi's diagram -- breaking from 'A' (closer to the rail) is more agressive and the risk of a bad hit is greater; breaking from 'B' (farther from the rail) is safer IMO.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg7F1%Qf8C9%Rf8F9%SN0C1%TT2C2
%WP2M9%Xf6F5%YE5X7%ZI8R8%]R2C8%^C2G2%eA6`7%_D7G9%`K5J9%aN7N1
)END

Notice I've drawn the cue ball path with a slight curve after it first hits the stack, that's the effect of the top english after the carom off the stack. The key is to first very thinly clip the head ball, then carom off the second ball. Those are supposed to be the only two balls you hit!

A good break has a certain sound.

You may have seen the diagram in the Getting Started section -- you will have to scroll down from there to find it.
 

Rod

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Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
76
From
Phoenix, Az
NH Steve said:
What Hemi has diagramed is the standard One Pocket break, which can occasionally even pocket the corner ball, and almost always gives the breaker a distinct advantage. I've added a couple of details to Hemi's diagram -- breaking from 'A' (closer to the rail) is more agressive and the risk of a bad hit is greater; breaking from 'B' (farther from the rail) is safer IMO.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg7F1%Qf8C9%Rf8F9%SN0C1%TT2C2
%WP2M9%Xf6F5%YE5X7%ZI8R8%]R2C8%^C2G2%eA6`7%_D7G9%`K5J9%aN7N1
)END

Those are supposed to be the only two balls you hit!


uh huh, well I wish that held true. It does most of the time except when you don't check the rack. lol I break near position B. The conditions need to be good for me to move over to A. When it gets sticky I might move down a ball. Not the best break but it keeps me out of trouble.

Rod
 

Pelican

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Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
703
From
Magnolia Springs, AL
I know that I can tell when I got the head ball too full. The wing ball heads to a point between the last diamond and my opponents pocket. I usuallk wind up with some crap like this :eek:
START(
%AM7Q0%BK6S5%CG8R0%DL4N0%EN9R9%FJ9O9%GK0N7%HM7N8%IL1P1%JK3L9
%KJ3Q2%LH9M6%MM0U2%NF6X4%OC8F5%PG8F8%WP1N7%Xh2D6%YD0F9%ZJ0L4
)END
 

D Money1644

New Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
4
From
kaysville, UT
thanks you guys are great. i guess im just hitting the apex ball too thick like pelican diagrammed. would this also make the inside english not "take" very well? every time i try it seems like the english has no effect. and what would be safer: to hit the apex ball too thick or miss it completely and only hit the 2nd ball? gotta know which way would be erring on the side of caution. ;)

thanks again.
 

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
12,283
From
New Hampshire
D Money1644 said:
thanks you guys are great. i guess im just hitting the apex ball too thick like pelican diagrammed. would this also make the inside english not "take" very well? every time i try it seems like the english has no effect. and what would be safer: to hit the apex ball too thick or miss it completely and only hit the 2nd ball? gotta know which way would be erring on the side of caution. ;)

thanks again.
Missing the head ball is a definite disaster -- unless you get lucky :)

If you want to err on the safe side, start with the cue ball a little farther from the cushion -- like 6" or so. It takes a pretty good chunk of inside english to really hold up the cue ball against that side rail.

On a well struck standard break, the head ball (the "apex" ball on the spot) should go over to the side rail just below the side pocket, and maybe bounce out 2 to 3 inches off that long side rail. That might provide another clue as to what you are doing wrong if your break doesn't come out right.
 
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