My two cents

wincardona

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I'm exhausted and not feeling well after three days of grueling play. Granted i'm 74 years old and not physically equipped to play pool for 17 hours which I did on the final day. Two years ago when I won the tournament I played 17 hours again on the final day but now at the age of 74 it was just too much for my body to handle. I don't agree with playing with a shot clock, nor changing the rules of the game to speed up the game, I enjoy playing and watching one pocket being played the way it's played.

Playing with pockets under 4-1/2" will slow up play considerably and will encourage the better players to play more of a moving game figuring that they will increase their chance of winning forcing the lesser player to earn the win. This is what I had noticed and followed suit by employing the same strategy myself. With 4-1/2" or 4-5/8" pockets the strategies employed would lend to a much quicker game, and that's what we're shooting for. I also agree that adding an extra day to the playing of the tournament will create a much more enjoyable tournament to play and watch being played. I arrived in Houston on the 24th. figuring the tournament was starting on the 25th. but it started on the 26th. We actually could have started on the 25th. and played a full round or possibly two rounds which would have allowed the final day to be more enjoyable and exciting as we watched a final match at a reasonable hour.

My suggestion would be to play with larger pockets and add another day of play to the format. After all, we are seniors that need easier equipment and rest to play and perform to our standards. Also, the additional rest will not be as damaging to our health.

Another option that would speed up the game would be to play winner breaks on the one loss side race to three. We could shorten the race to two and play rotate break on the one loss side as well.

Lets be real, when we start changing the rules of the game by either using a shot clock or by modifying the rules it's going to be an awkward transition. Regardless of what we do, there must be a compromise or we will go back and forth endlessly with what our options are. My two cents.

Dr. Bill
 

ChicagoFats

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Feb 1, 2017
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Incardona is one of the sickest players I have ever seen play. It would drive me batty to play the guy. I think if I didn't know how he played and we matched up... about 30 minutes into the first game I would just pay him off and break down my cue. I incorrectly and foolishly would assume he was stalling. I play Ike often and he is one of the best "movers" in the game. He is also no slouch, a couple balls under the cream of the crop, in running out.
I watched every minute of both of their matches live.
I have never seen Ike put in so many sick spots where not only did he have 0 offensive options... sometimes he only had 1(yes 1) defensive option.
About two games into the first match, I was second guessing the "great Incardona" since I had no history of watching him play.
By the end of the second match, I can see the pressure he was applying on every shot. It was a delight to truly see WWYD on every shot. Obviously Ike had to adjust/respond as well.
Now I am wishing I had a chance to watch Artie Bodendorfer play at his prime.
It would be cool to have some video where the "thinking" time is cut out and you just see all the execution.
I think my game is going to improve just from watching this weekend.
There is no way I could play in a smoking room.
I also agree larger pockets may speed up that tournament.
I still see straight, so I prefer the tightest pockets.
 

El Chapo

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Oct 28, 2016
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As humbly as I can say it, yes, I do not think it is rocket science. Play on huge pockets. The tournament will go quicker and the game will appeal to a broader base because there will be more offense, exciting comebacks and quicks games and turnaround matches. And, every one pocket player will complain because shooters are now firing in banks and running out. Maybe they will learn a thing or two and start firing in some flyer banks themselves, and then we will really be getting somewhere.

I have got more to say about this speed topic. I do not care what field you are in!! I am a photographer. I could take an entire day to make a SINGLE photo and I would be happy. Guess what though, my clients would not be. In fact, I move as fast as humanly possible for even the most discerning clients, and frankly the faster you go the more they love you. The key is figuring ways to get 90-95% of the quality in 10% of the time. And it is possible, believe me, because of the old law of diminishing returns when you spend a long time on something.

I will tell you what, if you are a one pocket player and do not think speed is important, go into the kitchen of a world class chef one day. Let me know what you see. You think you are going to see a chef plating and cooking dishes in slow motion to fine and exacting standards? They are doing stuff that should take minutes in seconds, and doing it well. Why, because their customers/clients demand it! Not because they want to.

"Clients" in the pool world, as fas as I am concerned, are fans (or potential fans). I don't believe the avergae one pocket enthusiast even thinks of this. They only think of themselves.... sure, I could take a day to make a photo, a chef could take an hour to plate a few dishes... but we may go bust. Oh, bust is exactly where one pocket has been for ages. What a coincidence.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Jul 8, 2017
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Klamath Falls, Or.
I 2nd ChicagoFats thoughts, I too enjoyed your matches and realized that you were completely worn out. Very hard to think let alone execute, I've been there and done that, and I thought you held up amazingly under those circumstances. That two rail bank you did whereas the cue ball also went two rails in behind your balls to start the run out, was brutal when it scratched.
I too am in the camp of starting a day early if players want to stick to the 3/3 format. Whitey
 

gulfportdoc

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Jun 25, 2004
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Gulfport, Mississippi
I'm exhausted and not feeling well after three days of grueling play. Granted i'm 74 years old and not physically equipped to play pool for 17 hours which I did on the final day. Two years ago when I won the tournament I played 17 hours again on the final day but now at the age of 74 it was just too much for my body to handle. I don't agree with playing with a shot clock, nor changing the rules of the game to speed up the game, I enjoy playing and watching one pocket being played the way it's played.

Playing with pockets under 4-1/2" will slow up play considerably and will encourage the better players to play more of a moving game figuring that they will increase their chance of winning forcing the lesser player to earn the win. This is what I had noticed and followed suit by employing the same strategy myself. With 4-1/2" or 4-5/8" pockets the strategies employed would lend to a much quicker game, and that's what we're shooting for. I also agree that adding an extra day to the playing of the tournament will create a much more enjoyable tournament to play and watch being played. I arrived in Houston on the 24th. figuring the tournament was starting on the 25th. but it started on the 26th. We actually could have started on the 25th. and played a full round or possibly two rounds which would have allowed the final day to be more enjoyable and exciting as we watched a final match at a reasonable hour.

My suggestion would be to play with larger pockets and add another day of play to the format. After all, we are seniors that need easier equipment and rest to play and perform to our standards. Also, the additional rest will not be as damaging to our health.

Another option that would speed up the game would be to play winner breaks on the one loss side race to three. We could shorten the race to two and play rotate break on the one loss side as well.

Lets be real, when we start changing the rules of the game by either using a shot clock or by modifying the rules it's going to be an awkward transition. Regardless of what we do, there must be a compromise or we will go back and forth endlessly with what our options are. My two cents.

Dr. Bill
Good points, Bill. I too arrived on Wed. 10/24. I thought play would start after the Calcutta and draw on Thurs. evening, 10/25. I think that should be done next time, especially when there are over 32 players. Certainly the first "non bye" round could have been played. Management believed that by starting on Friday that no one would have to go home after one day, after the expense of getting there. But I don't think the guys would resent that at all. We've all been around a little..:)

I agree about using 4-1/2" pockets. Smaller pockets are too tough, and encourage slow play. However in order to play on larger pockets we wouldn't be able to play at Bogies. They're not about to cut down their tables to 4-1/2". They've been generous enough to hold several senior's events, so that would be a big consideration for future tournaments. The senior events have been Bogies events, not onepocket.org's. So another room would have to step up to offer their venue.

~Doc
 

cincy_kid

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Nov 23, 2015
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Cincinnati, OH
Thanks for the post Dr. Bill!!

Heck, I would love to see 4.5" or greater pockets, I could actually start making some balls when I play! :)

No, but really, good playing, good showing and hope to see you at the derby!
 

sappo

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Mar 29, 2006
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Tucson AZ
Just my take, all good suggestions but the amount of time taken by certain players over and over again is too long and something should be done to speed those players up. 5 inch pockets will not accomplish that.
 

mr3cushion

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Cocoa Beach, FL
Here's the time frame for a 32 man field round robin with flights.

Example: 32 players, 8 flights of 4, the TOP 2 players from each flight, (16) advance to a 4 flights of 4 players, 'semi-final!' The TOP player or 2 in each flight, (4 or 8) advance to a, 'single-elimination' Finals!

With a room that has 8 tables, and the field is 32 players, 1 match from each flight can be going on simultaneously, (half the field)! Lets say, each match will take approximately 150 minutes./2.5 hrs. In Each flight there will be 6 matches x 8 flights = 48 matches /8 tables = 6 rounds x 150 minutes = 900 minutes/60 = 15 hrs. to play pre-lims!
 
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crabbcatjohn

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Benton, Ky.
Hated to see you get 3rd Bill. I was watching most of your matches. I guess there was a bright side, if you would have continued on you would have been playing on up to 20+ hours on the final day. That's just unheard of crazy for any tournament. As I saw you mentioned going to 2 on the losers in your post, I think we really need a more notable voice of reason besides me advocating for going to two on the losers side of all these tournaments. To me it seems to be the easy answer. But without any vocal support these tournaments will continue to be a train wreck. No shot clocks, no RR, no Grady. Just 3/2 races. We proved it really worked well in our onepocket.org Memphis tournament although we did use the Grady twice. After talking it over with some of the other guys I don't think we actually needed it. We had 6 on the final day, started at noon, winners started at 1:00 and were done by 8:30... lol
 

NH Steve

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New Hampshire
This senior event is definitely a Bogies event, so I don't see how it can be held on pockets any different than whatever Bogies has available. The owners and management have been fantastic -- adding $3000 this year, and feeding all the players all three days of the tournament. I would want to support Bogies for sure!!! That said, I have never liked tight pockets myself lol so I also support bigger pockets :D:D
 

Scrzbill

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Eagles Rest, Wa
This senior event is definitely a Bogies event, so I don't see how it can be held on pockets any different than whatever Bogies has available. The owners and management have been fantastic -- adding $3000 this year, and feeding all the players all three days of the tournament. I would want to support Bogies for sure!!! That said, I have never liked tight pockets myself lol so I also support bigger pockets :D:D

Finally a voice of reason. Whoda thunk it. Change one rule, then another, another, another. Does anyone remember push out nine ball?
 

El Chapo

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The irony is just too thick for me in that the answer could be large pockets.

I will tell ya what, I would bet there would be a discernable spectator difference at say the derby if the one pocket was played on buckets. I think we would see an immidiate impact, and what other changes in any sport or game can we say that about? More "exciting" players would be making it further in the tounament. Slow, defensive players would simply be forced into shooting. And we all know shooting opens games up, because when you shoot you tend to either win or lose. Faster games, more comebacks, more shooters entering the events... I am tellin ya this is it, the Doc nailed it.
 

Tom Wirth

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Delray Beach, Florida
The irony is just too thick for me in that the answer could be large pockets.

I will tell ya what, I would bet there would be a discernable spectator difference at say the derby if the one pocket was played on buckets. I think we would see an immidiate impact, and what other changes in any sport or game can we say that about? More "exciting" players would be making it further in the tounament. Slow, defensive players would simply be forced into shooting. And we all know shooting opens games up, because when you shoot you tend to either win or lose. Faster games, more comebacks, more shooters entering the events... I am tellin ya this is it, the Doc nailed it.

I've got to ask, How many times have you played the Derby El Chapo? Though I've never measured the pockets there I can tell you that those tables play loose. Far looser than any of the tables at Bogies.
Just sayin'.

That being said, I agree that Bogies has been fantastic to OP.org and we should continue to support them as much as we possibly can but Bogies is not the only venue OP.org can use for our tournaments.

Tom
 

crabbcatjohn

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Benton, Ky.
As far as I know the Diamind pro cut pockets are 4.5". I thought I read that the gold crowns at Bogies were reduced to 4-1/4 with a few that were 4-1/8. I think I also read they had they put the extended rails on them which make them play pretty darn tough for amateur players and would be a lock for the Pros to come in 1-4th which is what happened. JMO
 

jtompilot

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New Orleans
As far as I know the Diamind pro cut pockets are 4.5". I thought I read that the gold crowns at Bogies were reduced to 4-1/4 with a few that were 4-1/8. I think I also read they had they put the extended rails on them which make them play pretty darn tough for amateur players and would be a lock for the Pros to come in 1-4th which is what happened. JMO

The extended rails are so you can bank a ball off the end of the cushion instead of having three shims that you can’t bank off.
 

youngstown

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My two cents

I've got to ask, How many times have you played the Derby El Chapo? Though I've never measured the pockets there I can tell you that those tables play loose.


Good point about Derby. They are standard size diamond pockets. Brand new cloth there too, but after a few days of banks, they’re just starting to lose the new cloth slip and starting to grab a bit. Definitely not playing like tight one pocket tables.
 

baby huey

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We could have started a little earlier on friday say 9:30 or so instead of noon. And, also on saturday as well. Believe it or not starting earlier shows up on the back end. Playing one less round on sunday would have gotten the event over by 1AM and less stess on everyone.
 

youngstown

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My two cents

As a tournament director it’s not how I would run a tournament but what if you ran the first two rounds of the winners side on Friday that would guarantee you that nobody gets knocked out.
 

Island Drive

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florence, colorado
As a tournament director it’s not how I would run a tournament but what if you ran the first two rounds of the winners side on Friday that would guarantee you that nobody gets knocked out.

As the artemis 66 pro rails become standard and my guess there are two lenghts, changing pocket size is not the way too go. Rails now are JUST becoming the same world wide somewhat. We know China rolls different. Knockin' a round out the first night makes sense if it helps. Make the final set race to 3 not 4. Winner breaks first. you just saved allot of time. We could also talk about 4/7 single elimination (one 30 min break) allot of us above 65 like too match up, that's as fun as the event itself at times.
 

mr3cushion

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After doing the math, I'm pretty sure the only way yo shorten the Total time frame for the tournament is to play, pre-lim round robin flights (brackets), semi-final, round robin flights (brackets) and single-elimination finals!

Each player, depending on entrants, 32 as an example, will be Guaranteed to play at least 3 matches in the pre-lims! As opposed to possibly only 2 with a, double elimination format!

Players will get to play more matches, in less time!
 
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