what do you think about what ben let dave do in the finals

beatle · Jun 13, 2019

oiujhg

12squared · Jun 13, 2019

beatle said:
in the last game i think. ben played a safe and sent the cue ball up in the corner pocket so had to spot two balls. so he put them up.

dave then proceeded to line them up and go around and check them from different angles and realign them. then ben let dave even tap one down with the butt of his cuestick. so he could do the okie dokey shot.

would you let your opponent the shooter in the finals do this?

No issue. Ben spotted the 2 balls first and they were not frozen. I asked Ben if I could freeze them before touching them and they would not freeze. Even after tapping them they were not perfectly frozen but I didn't want to keep doing it. I should have cleaned/rubbed the table near the spot to see if that would help.

This happens all the time, the 2 balls should be frozen...period. It wasn't Ben's fault they were not frozen when he spotted them because I tried a bunch of times and couldn't get them to fully freeze.

I will be interested in everyone's thoughts on this - what was your thought, Beatle?

Note: I really enjoyed playing Ben and look forward to the next time. I reviewed the stream video and I really should not have won; Ben had several tough scratches that stopped his runs that got me back to the table. And as Hendy mentioned, I shot a few shots that made him (and me) cringe. But I'm still grateful for the victory, it was a blast - win or lose.

Dave

Bmoretallpaul · Jun 13, 2019

beatle said:
in the last game i think. ben played a safe and sent the cue ball up in the corner pocket so had to spot two balls. so he put them up.

dave then proceeded to line them up and go around and check them from different angles and realign them. then ben let dave even tap one down with the butt of his cuestick. so he could do the okie dokey shot.

would you let your opponent the shooter in the finals do this?

The answer is yes, the balls are supposed to be straight and frozen. Whether he does the okie dokie shot or not. I'm, sure Dave asked Ben prior to touching the balls and Ben agreed.

Mkbtank · Jun 13, 2019

what do you think about what ben let dave do in the finals

I shoot the “Road Shot” as I call it consistently. Many times I have made my opponent reset the balls straight and many times they just tell me to do it. To ensure that they are straight and frozen. I would also let an opponent do the same.

jtompilot · Jun 13, 2019

Resetting the spotted balls happen all the time.

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Jun 13, 2019

Many times I have posted about OP proper procedure, with little to no response! The lack of specifically pointing out proper procedure (what is expected of players) when playing OP lends to this gray area, for no where in any rules does it state that the opponent is to spot balls for the incoming shooter!

Here is proper procedure:
Opponent always spots balls for the incoming shooter.
A scored ball is always placed in their collective area by the scorer.
A ball owed is always removed by the player that owes the ball.
The coin is always placed or removed by the offending player.
A neutral ball pocketed is the ball spotted, and not another ball.
A break from play can only be taken during your inning.

With the above in placed then it is courteous to remind a player when a proper procedure is forgotten. For instance; you remind a player to place a coin.

Further:
A player down on the shot can not be interrupted. The shooter points to and declares balls are frozen. Opponent can approach the table to inspect close proximity shots or to determine whether balls are frozen or not, and at appropriate times can discuss a coin or ball forgotten, or a neutral ball mistakenly placed in a collective area, and things of this nature, but should never approach the table and disrupt a shooter to simply ask what the score is.

These simple above statements would add so much to the excellence of OP. Whitey

gulfportdoc · Jun 13, 2019

beatle said:
in the last game i think. ben played a safe and sent the cue ball up in the corner pocket so had to spot two balls. so he put them up.

dave then proceeded to line them up and go around and check them from different angles and realign them. then ben let dave even tap one down with the butt of his cuestick. so he could do the okie dokey shot.

would you let your opponent the shooter in the finals do this?

The way Ben and Dave handled it was ideal. They were both in agreement.

But as to your question whether an opponent, unannounced, would take it upon himself to "neaten up" the two spotted balls: if a guy did that to me after I'd placed them, and did not get my permission, I'd be looking to call an intentional foul, especially if the guy was a stranger. If a friend did it, I'd likely not say anything. Well...... maybe a few wisecracks..

~Doc

ChicagoFats · Jun 13, 2019

Standard no issue.

However, if you let the guy line them up... the non-shooter should have a chance to review and address anything.

gulfportdoc · Jun 13, 2019

Good advice Whitey.

Re: "A break from play can only be taken during your inning." To refine the statement, a break can be taken anytime, subject to any tournament stipulations, but the only time your opponent must stop play is when you take a break before or during your inning. If you take a break before or during the opponent's inning, he can continue shooting.

I learned this the hard way during a 9ball tournament match in Reno against Max Eberle. About midway through, the match was close, but he was picking up steam. At one point I thought I'd break his roll by taking a break while he was shooting. When I got back from the restroom, he had run the rack, and was racking for the next game, which was legal. Nobody had been watching, but it didn't matter. I never did THAT again!..

~Doc

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Jun 13, 2019

I watched some of this year's MOT, and thanks Kentucky for the stream. But, what I saw more often than not was the impatience of the sitting opponent that upon the shooter's inning ending they would jump up and place balls in their opponent's collective area, spot balls, and work the coins. This to some may seem courteous, but to me it all goes to not having proper procedures instilled.

All the incoming player should do is wait until the outgoing player takes care of his own balls and coins, and then go and start your inning, and technically thereafter is when your inning starts.

In no other game is there so much interaction with balls and coins, and thus also players, and in my observation of matches, I believe there is a need for specific procedural order.

This game is also much different than other games in that it takes so much concentration and thinking when your at the table. Therefore, an opponent approaching the table and disrupting this thought process, they better have one hell of a good reason! And I can not think of one. I would wait until he shot then approach the table and discuss forgot balls or something along that order.

Kentucky stopped me when I was down on a shot, but he realized I was shooting at the wrong hole. Very good sportsmanship!

In this case in question of spotting the balls, it was handled very appropriately by the players. Whitey

LSJohn · Jun 13, 2019

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
for no where in any rules does it state that the opponent is to spot balls for the incoming shooter!

Here is proper procedure:
Opponent always spots balls for the incoming shooter.

Since it's not in the rules, these are suggestions. Nothing wrong with the idea, but IMO, unnecessarily restrictive. Either player can spot them and the other player inspect. If agreement can't be reached, call a ref, TD, or disinterested 3rd party.

I agree with the last 2 as best protocol, but alterable by mutual consent:
"A neutral ball pocketed is the ball spotted, and not another ball.
A break from play can only be taken during your inning"

but I consider the others as the first, unnecessarily restrictive. Both players should pay attention so they are able to correct any errors when they occur. If you snooze, you may looze.

As to the initial question, Dave and Ben did what is common, accepted, and workable.

Scrzbill · Jun 13, 2019

These member tournaments are more about friendship than following set rules. Thus you find guys putting up balls you have made, moving coins, setting spot shots, the whole ball of works. I know when playing one of my matches, my opponent told me to catch a ball going into the pocket, something I don’t do and would not consider. I caught the ball as asked and took my turn. No words. No objections. No argument.
As Whitey mentioned, during the Best Coast tournament, I told him he was shooting at the wrong hole. For three dollars, I would have let him shoot it, but sportsmanship in a members tournament outweighs “rules”.

ChicagoFats · Jun 13, 2019

Scrzbill said:
These member tournaments are more about friendship than following set rules. Thus you find guys putting up balls you have made, moving coins, setting spot shots, the whole ball of works. I know when playing one of my matches, my opponent told me to catch a ball going into the pocket, something I don’t do and would not consider. I caught the ball as asked and took my turn. No words. No objections. No argument.
As Whitey mentioned, during the Best Coast tournament, I told him he was shooting at the wrong hole. For three dollars, I would have let him shoot it, but sportsmanship in a members tournament outweighs “rules”.

Great post!

sheldon · Jun 13, 2019

I saw this happen several times in the Efren/Billy match. Nobody even batted an eye.
Perhaps more strict guidelines should be adhered to in a tournament situation, but 1v1, especially with someone you know and respect shouldn't be so pretentious.

beatle · Jun 13, 2019

when im gambling and its up to me to spot the balls i do and if the opponent doesnt think they are straight i straighten them until he is happy and they are straight. no one gets to tap the balls into a hole in the cloth to make them stay where they want.

if he wants to let me do it and arrange the balls how i want them. that's fine with me. then i can make the okey dokie shot much more often and hurt his chances.

same rule as if we play opponent racks the balls. the shooter if he doesn't like the rack, doesn't get to re-rack them and tap them into place. at least not if i am playing, unless robbing the guy and dont want to piss him off.

LSJohn · Jun 13, 2019

Scrzbill said:
These member tournaments are more about friendship than following set rules. Thus you find guys putting up balls you have made, moving coins, setting spot shots, the whole ball of works. I know when playing one of my matches, my opponent told me to catch a ball going into the pocket, something I don’t do and would not consider. I caught the ball as asked and took my turn. No words. No objections. No argument.
As Whitey mentioned, during the Best Coast tournament, I told him he was shooting at the wrong hole. For three dollars, I would have let him shoot it, but sportsmanship in a members tournament outweighs “rules”.

Well said.

Two thumbs up.

Billy Jackets · Jun 13, 2019

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Many times I have posted about OP proper procedure, with little to no response! The lack of specifically pointing out proper procedure (what is expected of players) when playing OP lends to this gray area, for no where in any rules does it state that the opponent is to spot balls for the incoming shooter!

Here is proper procedure:
Opponent always spots balls for the incoming shooter.
A scored ball is always placed in their collective area by the scorer.
A ball owed is always removed by the player that owes the ball.
The coin is always placed or removed by the offending player.
A neutral ball pocketed is the ball spotted, and not another ball.
A break from play can only be taken during your inning.

With the above in placed then it is courteous to remind a player when a proper procedure is forgotten. For instance; you remind a player to place a coin.

Further:
A player down on the shot can not be interrupted. The shooter points to and declares balls are frozen. Opponent can approach the table to inspect close proximity shots or to determine whether balls are frozen or not, and at appropriate times can discuss a coin or ball forgotten, or a neutral ball mistakenly placed in a collective area, and things of this nature, but should never approach the table and disrupt a shooter to simply ask what the score is.

These simple above statements would add so much to the excellence of OP. Whitey

I could not agree more.
The problem is, the people who are prone to put moves on you, don't ever want to follow these procedures, and they cloud them up every chance they get.
They also tell all the weaker minded players that people who insist on rules are nits and should never be listened to.
That's why you go in most poolrooms and people are argueing all the time about a rule or a hit or a shot or etiquette or any of the hundred things that should never be an issue, but seem to come up every outing.

Scrzbill · Jun 13, 2019

LSJohn said:
Well said.

Two thumbs up.

That’s more more finger than usual, thanks

Hardmix · Jun 14, 2019

If I am playing any kind of tournament or money match for that matter, it really makes no difference to me who spots the balls as long as it is done properly.

BRLongArm · Jun 14, 2019

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Many times I have posted about OP proper procedure, with little to no response! The lack of specifically pointing out proper procedure (what is expected of players) when playing OP lends to this gray area, for no where in any rules does it state that the opponent is to spot balls for the incoming shooter!

Here is proper procedure:
Opponent always spots balls for the incoming shooter.
A scored ball is always placed in their collective area by the scorer.
A ball owed is always removed by the player that owes the ball.
The coin is always placed or removed by the offending player.
A neutral ball pocketed is the ball spotted, and not another ball.
A break from play can only be taken during your inning.

With the above in placed then it is courteous to remind a player when a proper procedure is forgotten. For instance; you remind a player to place a coin.

Further:
A player down on the shot can not be interrupted. The shooter points to and declares balls are frozen. Opponent can approach the table to inspect close proximity shots or to determine whether balls are frozen or not, and at appropriate times can discuss a coin or ball forgotten, or a neutral ball mistakenly placed in a collective area, and things of this nature, but should never approach the table and disrupt a shooter to simply ask what the score is.

These simple above statements would add so much to the excellence of OP. Whitey

I agree with all these rules, but so long as the player notifies his opponent, "I got your ball", or "I'm moving the coin", when you are on the breaking end, I think it is ok. Standard rules apply, but if you communicate and he is ok with it, I don't see a problem with courtesy. Most arguments do start when these rules are not standard procedure.

what do you think about what ben let dave do in the finals

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