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  #11  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:16 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyA View Post
Would just like to get some confirmation by the experts:

1. According to the standard rules of One Pocket on this forum, is it true that an accidentally moved ball(s) by the shooter (regardless if it during his stroke or at any other time) the ball(s) is/are simply put back into the agreed place from when it/they once rested before being accidentally moved?

2. However, during the shot, if the cue ball comes through or near the path of the accidentally moved object ball(s), it is a foul and loss of inning?

3. Also, according to the standard rules of one pocket, if an object ball is made on the break, the breaker counts that ball as his own and continues shooting? The reason why I ask this is because lately I have noticed that in MOST one pocket matches, it seems that an object ball on the break, the balls are re-racked for another break by the same shooter.

4. Also, if not spoken about beforehand, what is the official rule of whether a ball is in the kitchen or not? (whole ball behind the head string or base of ball)

It seems that there are a lot of rules that are being used but aren't in the official rules.


Thanks,
JoeyA
Joey A. Your statements are true. But to clarify your final statement; there are many one pocket tournaments across the country and they may use the OnePocket.org game rules /WPA general rules, or BCAPL/CSI/game/general rules, or BCA/ game rules/WPA general rules for they are the 3 main rule making bodies that I know of that have one pocket game rules, and their rules are slightly different. With that said, the administrative authority also can also employ their own "Alternative Rules". For instance DCC goes by BCAPL/CSI Game/General Rules but they employ their own alternative game rules. This is why you are not seeing consistent rule play throughout different tournaments.

But games rules are guidelines so the player knows how to play the game, and do employ rules specific to that game that is not specified in general rules. Whereas general rules go into more detail about a rule and applies to game rules, unless it just does not apply at all, or is overruled by a specific game rule.

Clarify line 1&2. Tournaments these days can not have a referee present at the tables at all times, thus for this reason and this reason only the general rules had to develop a "Cue Ball Foul Only Rule". Which is; it is a foul to disturb the cue ball but it is not a foul to disturb a single object ball that has no effect upon the shot! This rule keeps from there being an argument after the fact and not witnessed by a referee, as to whether or not a shooter touched a ball or not. If a referee were present then this rule would not be needed and then a clean game of pool would then be played. Note; in defense of the shooter, a lot of times the shooter shooting over a ball does not honestly know or realize that they ever so slightly touched that ball.

Interesting, NH Steve's touch foul rule idea, whereas the first line is exactly how Butch the owner of the Palace in Bellflower, ca. explained it to me. He stated; "it is not a foul to disturb a ball as long as you do not continue to stroke the cue ball, for the ball can be replaced. But, if you continue the shot it is a foul for the ball then can not be replaced". This is how Hustlers played, as I knew it!

Line 3. Making a ball on the break and then re-racking is not a rule in any of the 3 main rule making bodies. BCAPL/CSI, BCA, OnePocket.org, but is an "alternative rule by the administrative authority". By "standard rule" I assume you mean WPA general rules. WPA does not domain over One Pocket game rules, for they have none. So in their general rules, if you make a ball on the break, yes it would count and yes you would continue, but this does not apply to One Pocket but only the games they have domain over.

Line 4. BCAPL/CSI & WPA goes by base of the ball when having BIH/ behind the Line. Alternative Rules as posted by Doc has DCC having the whole ball in front of the line.

Thanks Joey A. for bringing this all up for it is pretty confusing. I was watching I believe a DCC match and commentator mentioned I viewed 3 fouls in a row and non of them were called. It was regarding the shot rule when the cue ball was frozen to and in-between the rail and object ball. And the other commentator said; " the 3 foul rule does not apply", which this statement does not apply to the frozen cue ball rule, for you have to make a legal shot by rule or it is a foul. So there you go, go figure! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 01-22-2018 at 02:52 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2018, 08:54 PM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Okay, thanks for the responses Dennis. BTW, thanks for the kind comments about my commentary.

I have one more question.....As to the Alternative Rules as posted by Doc: If we're talking about the whole ball being above the head string (or behind it, in the case of the cue ball) for it to be a legal ball, is the head string "line" determined by the middle of the diamond or the top of the diamond or the bottom of the diamond? It is approximately a fourth of an inch difference each way and wars have been fought over less.

Thanks,

JoeyA


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
Joey A. Your statements are true. But to clarify your final statement; there are many one pocket tournaments across the country and they may use the OnePocket.org game rules /WPA general rules, or BCAPL/CSI/game/general rules, or BCA/ game rules/WPA general rules for they are the 3 main rule making bodies that I know of that have one pocket game rules, and their rules are slightly different. With that said, the administrative authority also can also employ their own "Alternative Rules". For instance DCC goes by BCAPL/CSI Game/General Rules but they employ their own alternative game rules. This is why you are not seeing consistent rule play throughout different tournaments.

But games rules are guidelines so the player knows how to play the game, and do employ rules specific to that game that is not specified in general rules. Whereas general rules go into more detail about a rule and applies to game rules, unless it just does not apply at all, or is overruled by a specific game rule.

Clarify line 1&2. Tournaments these days can not have a referee present at the tables at all times, thus for this reason and this reason only the general rules had to develop a "Cue Ball Foul Only Rule". Which is; it is a foul to disturb the cue ball but it is not a foul to disturb a single object ball that has no effect upon the shot! This rule keeps from there being an argument after the fact and not witnessed by a referee, as to whether or not a shooter touched a ball or not. If a referee were present then this rule would not be needed and then a clean game of pool would then be played. Note; in defense of the shooter, a lot of times the shooter shooting over a ball does not honestly know or realize that they ever so slightly touched that ball.

Interesting, NH Steve's touch foul rule idea, whereas the first line is exactly how Butch the owner of the Palace in Bellflower, ca. explained it to me. He stated; "it is not a foul to disturb a ball as long as you do not continue to stroke the cue ball, for the ball can be replaced. But, if you continue the shot it is a foul for the ball then can not be replaced". This is how Hustlers played, as I knew it!

Line 3. Making a ball on the break and then re-racking is not a rule in any of the 3 main rule making bodies. BCAPL/CSI, BCA, OnePocket.org, but is an "alternative rule by the administrative authority". By "standard rule" I assume you mean WPA general rules. WPA does not domain over One Pocket game rules, for they have none. So in their general rules, if you make a ball on the break, yes it would count and yes you would continue, but this does not apply to One Pocket but only the games they have domain over.

Line 4. BCAPL/CSI & WPA goes by base of the ball when having BIH/ behind the Line. Alternative Rules as posted by Doc has DCC having the whole ball in front of the line.

Thanks Joey A. for bringing this all up for it is pretty confusing. I was watching I believe a DCC match and commentator mentioned I viewed 3 fouls in a row and non of them were called. It was regarding the shot rule when the cue ball was frozen to and in-between the rail and object ball. And the other commentator said; " the 3 foul rule does not apply", which this statement does not apply to the frozen cue ball rule, for you have to make a legal shot by rule or it is a foul. So there you go, go figure! Whitey
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2018, 09:01 PM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Thanks John.
Getting ready for Buffalo's on Bloomfield next big tournament in May 2018.

JoeyA

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn View Post
Hey, Joey. How goes it?



1. If two balls are moved, it is a foul, and no balls are replaced. If only one ball is accidentally moved, it is not a foul (unless see #2) and whether to leave it or replace it is at the option of the offender's opponent. In refereed matches the matter of unsportsmanlike conduct could lead to additional penalty if the referee judges that moving a ball or balls was intentional.

2. If any ball comes through the place where the accidentally moved ball was, or strikes the moved ball, it is a foul and no balls are replaced.

3. Standard rule is keep shooting. Variations are being tried, the most common is re-rack, apparently because a lot of people believe that making a ball is completely or almost completely luck (or skullduggery.)

4. I'm not sure, but I don't think there's a written rule on this.
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2018, 09:02 PM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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Thanks Steve.
JoeyA


Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve View Post
I agree with other comments. As far as balls in the kitchen, the standard world rules still go by the base of the ball, so as far as I am concerned, that would always be the default. Whole ball or base seems to be a local preference many places, so it is not much of a problem day to day because people know their local preferences. If you are unsure, ask.

I have suggested a foul rule that I have been calling "All ball fouls; one touch warning" that goes essentially like this:



I think this would work well and gets fairly close to the pure "all ball fouls", but is more manageable in day to day and tournament play when no referee is present (i.e. about 99.999% of the time lol).
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2018, 09:28 PM
powerball powerball is offline
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Default My 2 cents

Base of the ball is wonderful; but, only if there is a line drawn to designate the kitchen. Without the line, it's the whole ball.
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  #16  
Old 02-01-2018, 12:41 AM
Scrzbill Scrzbill is offline
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The “rules” about moving a ball used to be, if a ball is moved, the ball is returned to its original position. Now, I believe, the rule is, player who isn’t shooting gets his choice to move it back or keep it. I prefer the rule where it moves back to the original position. As far as cue ball fouls that pass through the path of a moved object ball, foul. I’ve had a few discussions about this one. Moving object balls. I grew up, you don’t move any balls. Then it was you could move one object ball, but two or more is a foul. I have always played base of the ball. It could be that because most joints I played at had a line across the table. No matter which way you do it, just do it consistently and that goes for all the “rules”. One ‘rule’ I think is very important, when on the road and playing at a strange place, always plan an exit strategy. Money on the light, count it twice.
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  #17  
Old 02-07-2018, 07:28 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyA View Post
Okay, thanks for the responses Dennis. BTW, thanks for the kind comments about my commentary.

I have one more question.....As to the Alternative Rules as posted by Doc: If we're talking about the whole ball being above the head string (or behind it, in the case of the cue ball) for it to be a legal ball, is the head string "line" determined by the middle of the diamond or the top of the diamond or the bottom of the diamond? It is approximately a fourth of an inch difference each way and wars have been fought over less.

Thanks,

JoeyA
Joey A, I have been away from the site for awhile and just noticed your further question. Actually there is no width to the line, for it is an imaginary line between the diamonds. Within BCAPL and WPA they both go by the center of the diamond as they have diagramed, but there is no specific "written" rule defining the center of the diamond.

But in DCC they could of used the center or possibly the backward edge of the diamond towards the kitchen. I am not the person to definitively answer this question. But lets put it out there. WE NEED HELP ON THIS ONE! ANYBODY!

Thanks, wish I could be more helpful. Whitey
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  #18  
Old 02-08-2018, 07:26 AM
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NH Steve NH Steve is online now
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I've never heard anything other than the line being the center of the diamond, whether playing center of the ball or whole ball, or whether it is drawn or imaginary.

The standard rules that go by the center of the ball do say an object ball is playable if it is "on the line". To me that helps AVOID arguments, because what it is essentially saying is that if the two players or the ref cannot decide or agree which side of the line a ball is on, then it must be on the line and playable. I think it is a good thing to have that kind of definition because it preemptively gives those "too close to call" disagreements a resolution -- similar to questions of a "good hit" (in all games) -- too close to call generally goes to the shooter in all games.

If you are going with "whole ball" you would still need a sub-clause for those "too close to call" situations. One could presume following the precedent of the general rules, if it is too close to call it goes to the shooter, but I get the impression those of you favoring whole ball might prefer the other way, i.e., if it is too close to call then it is NOT shootable, because it is NOT "over the line".

What say you, those who are accustomed to the "whole ball" rule, which way do you rule when it is too close to call whether a ball is fully over the line or not??

Whole ball or center ball, or who gets the "too close to call" situations, all are fair -- it just comes down to agreeing on as definitive rules as possible, in my opinon.
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  #19  
Old 02-08-2018, 03:37 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Joey A.,
It is as Steve stated the center of the diamond is used. I contacted Bret Baker, the TD of DCC, and posed your question to him about what part of the spot is used!

His reply and I quote; "Derby City uses their own rules at the request of Greg Sullivan owner of Diamond Billiard Products. For all games the entire ball, both object ball or cue ball have to be in or out of the kitchen. That is determined by edge of ball and center of diamond". He further stated this only applies to the DCC tournament.

For those that are still confused and wonder just what is legal and illegal there is a wonderful BCAPL diagram on pg. 97 of their official rules that depict legal and illegal shots that are governed by the head string and base of the ball when the shooter has BIH / Behind the Line. Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 02-08-2018 at 04:07 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:58 AM
JoeyA JoeyA is offline
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That's great Dennis.

Thanks to all that wrote in this thread.

JoeyA


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
Joey A.,
It is as Steve stated the center of the diamond is used. I contacted Bret Baker, the TD of DCC, and posed your question to him about what part of the spot is used!

His reply and I quote; "Derby City uses their own rules at the request of Greg Sullivan owner of Diamond Billiard Products. For all games the entire ball, both object ball or cue ball have to be in or out of the kitchen. That is determined by edge of ball and center of diamond". He further stated this only applies to the DCC tournament.

For those that are still confused and wonder just what is legal and illegal there is a wonderful BCAPL diagram on pg. 97 of their official rules that depict legal and illegal shots that are governed by the head string and base of the ball when the shooter has BIH / Behind the Line. Whitey
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