What about Losing

yobagua

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We've all talked about victory. But what about Defeat. How do you deal with it. Poker playing instruction deals with "playing on tilt". Last nite I played with the best player in my room and he drilled me so bad I couldnt play anyone else that evening. I was "Playing on tilt". The worse player in my room ended up beating me on the hill. I was a shriveling mess. I kept selling out and overrunning my rock and rattling balls in my hole. I wanted to retire. HELP!
 

hemicudas

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May 24, 2004
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Jackson, Miss.
yobagua said:
We've all talked about victory. But what about Defeat. How do you deal with it. Poker playing instruction deals with "playing on tilt". Last nite I played with the best player in my room and he drilled me so bad I couldnt play anyone else that evening. I was "Playing on tilt". The worse player in my room ended up beating me on the hill. I was a shriveling mess. I kept selling out and overrunning my rock and rattling balls in my hole. I wanted to retire. HELP!

Yo, my friend. Do like I did, get use to it. I never played above smart shortstop speed but my arm won't go forward and back any more. It tends to go sideways. Back problems have kept me from playing hardly at all and the combination will get you broke in a hurry. Best of luck to ya, sir. I hope you snap out of it.
 

lfigueroa

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You've just got to keep at it and figure out why you lost, decipher what leads to "tilt" mode for you, and come up with a strategy for stopping it. Losing sucks. I remember that when I was new to the game, losing was about all I could do. When I moved to St. Louis, about thirteen years ago, I had never played 1pocket. Just nine ball and straight pool, (with a four year hiatus of bar table eight ball up in Montana). I was on the tail end of a ten year layoff from pool when I started playing again and I quickly found out that 1pocket was all anyone would gamble at here. So, I decided I'd learn.

I hated it. I'd lose to everybody: $200 sets lost to guys like Bid Ed, Butch, Iranian Billy, Robbie, and Kramer; $50 a game to Big Jake. $75 sets to Darmen, $100 sets to Mustache John, Terry, Jeremy, and Kip. $25 sets to Bill and Ralph. I couldn’t stand it, loathed it. All the bumping, nipping and tucking. Sometimes for what seemed like an eternity. Shot after shot after shot. And here's the worst part: I was losing to white haired old men and fat good ol' boys, and even young kids half my age.

And, the game would get me out of stroke. All the shots at pocket speed - laying up balls. Twisting and spinning balls. And the brutal realization that I never knew what the *right* shot was. And then, the even more brutal realization that even if I recognized the right shot, years of 14.1 and nine ball hadn't prepared me for so many of the shots I needed to be able to execute at 1pocket. These guys were giving me 10-7 and feeding me a lie that I actually believed: "I can only give you a couple of balls 'cause you shoot so straight" and then robbing me.

For months I would play, and lose, and curse the game. But then, I started to learn the shots. I would watch Accu-Stats tapes, and began recognizing the *right* shots, the correct strategy. I’d occasionally win. The spots became smaller, but still, "I hate this game."

Then, I started to book a few winners here and there, and more and more of the guys had to play me even. I started to change my opinion, "Maybe this game isn't so bad."

Soon there after, I had to start giving up weight to get a game. My opinion moved a bit more, "Hey, I kinda like this game."

Then the ultimate: the guy who had started out giving me 10-7, refused to play a couple of years later when I offered him 11-7.

I really like this game now :)

Lou Figueroa



yobagua said:
We've all talked about victory. But what about Defeat. How do you deal with it. Poker playing instruction deals with "playing on tilt". Last nite I played with the best player in my room and he drilled me so bad I couldnt play anyone else that evening. I was "Playing on tilt". The worse player in my room ended up beating me on the hill. I was a shriveling mess. I kept selling out and overrunning my rock and rattling balls in my hole. I wanted to retire. HELP!
 

loveshiscue

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The one thing I learned about losing is that you can ALWAYS learn something. Break down the loss later and go over in your head what happened. Things like mismanaging the bet, getting sharked, playing tired, eating before my match, not staying down, playing with back pain etc etc, these were all lessons you can learn and reinforce if you study your losses. Later it becomes easier to avoid the same landmines if you actually have spent the time to analyze losses.
 

yobagua

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thanks Lou for your honest and expansive description. I myself have gone through many years of one hole experience. Ive won some good sized tournaments and beaten a good amount of local guys. What Im interested in is when a negative factor creeps in your game and how you can get out of it. When nothing seems to go right and it is not the roll of the balls but a mental thing. When you get a real "bad beat". For example you're on the hill on a big set on the last ball and your opponent shits in the game ball. That can affect the rest of the night.

Do you quit? Do you get back on that horse right away? How can you keep from opening that flood gate of despair? I see guys like Parica just stiffen up their back bone and give a valiant effort. Some people think breaking even is a victory. The longer Ive played Ive been actually been able to see the DOG come out in people and myself. How do you respond to the DOG stroke?
 

lfigueroa

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Well, it seems to me that you’re talking about two different though related things. The first is something physical that creeps into your game and puts you in dog stroke. Actually, it doesn’t even have to be dog stroke -- it can just be being off enough that you’re not placing the cue ball as precisely as you’re capable. And the other thing is the psychological one that comes from a bad beat, or distractions, or something else. IMO, the dog stroke is the harder to defeat, simply because so many things can be causing it.

Part of being a better pool player is really knowing your stroke. It’s like being able to take your M16 apart and put it back together blindfolded. The better you know weapon, the faster you can do a road side repair, mid-match, when the wheels go spinning merrily off. If you don’t know your stroke, how can you fix it?

Two things to think about here: I know when I’m not getting the rolls and when everything is going bad, it’s usually because of me, not the other guy. IOW, I’m giving the guy too much air, too many opportunities, too many chances to roll the dice, because I’m not thinking right and/or playing with sufficient precision. If I’m playing the way I‘m suppose to (and not just playing someone totally out of my class), the other guy is going to have to work to find opportunities to hurt me. When I’m playing badly, a particular guy might beat me playing even, shooting crazy banks, getting good rolls splashing into the stack, leaving me hooked when he misses a flyer. But when I’m playing well, I can give that same guy 10-7 and he never sees the light of day. So what I’m trying to say is: often times the other guy is getting the good rolls because you’re giving him the chance to get the good rolls. And that’s the connection to the second thing.

Beating the psychological issue depends on how you’re wired. For some guys, a bad beat or a fluked in shot just fires them up. For others, it’s a real blow that’s tough, if not impossible, to overcome. Personally, I think to be able to beat this one you have to be capable of doing one really hard thing: making a brutally honest assessment of the situation. Sure the guy fluked in the game winning shot, but what was going on before that? How’s your stroke? Are you thinking right? Is the equipment on the square? Do you have something else on your mind? You can’t lie to yourself.

Everyone has been beaten when they shouldn’t have; everyone has lost when they had the nuts. And when that happens, you should be able to just shake it off. But then again… sometimes the other guy just beats you :)

Lou Figueroa



yobagua said:
thanks Lou for your honest and expansive description. I myself have gone through many years of one hole experience. Ive won some good sized tournaments and beaten a good amount of local guys. What Im interested in is when a negative factor creeps in your game and how you can get out of it. When nothing seems to go right and it is not the roll of the balls but a mental thing. When you get a real "bad beat". For example you're on the hill on a big set on the last ball and your opponent shits in the game ball. That can affect the rest of the night.

Do you quit? Do you get back on that horse right away? How can you keep from opening that flood gate of despair? I see guys like Parica just stiffen up their back bone and give a valiant effort. Some people think breaking even is a victory. The longer Ive played Ive been actually been able to see the DOG come out in people and myself. How do you respond to the DOG stroke?
 

gulfportdoc

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yobagua said:
What Im interested in is when a negative factor creeps in your game and how you can get out of it. When nothing seems to go right and it is not the roll of the balls but a mental thing. When you get a real "bad beat". For example you're on the hill on a big set on the last ball and your opponent shits in the game ball. That can affect the rest of the night.

Do you quit? Do you get back on that horse right away? How can you keep from opening that flood gate of despair? I see guys like Parica just stiffen up their back bone and give a valiant effort.
I don't imagine there's a player from Archer on down who doesn't go on tilt. The questions are: how often, and for how long? Will I be able to continue? Can I shrug it off?

If I'm gambling or playing pastime, I can just quit in disgust. If I'm in a tournament, and if I can't snap out of it, the format is going to force me to ride the elevator all the way down...

I've noticed that most pros and top players seem to be able to immediately accept what happens. They know from experience that the rolls will go against them part of the time, but will go their way at other times. They know that anger and resentment will cost them dearly. They do their best, and let the balls roll where they may. Now, for example, if Archer sits there and watches himself get wiped out 9-0 because of bad rolls, he's going to be steamed; but more than likely he'll just put it out of his mind after the match is over.

The problem with guys like me is that I have a tendency to attach some emotional meaning to the reason the other guy is winning: "Oh, he's getting all the rolls"; "Oh, hell, I can't buy a break"; "If this guy wasn't so damn lucky, I'd be kicking his butt"; "Why can't I ever get a roll?!"; and so on. But yet, when I prepare beforehand by reminding myself that there is a whole lot of luck in pool, and that I have no control whatever over what the other guy does; then I can have a pretty even-keeled match. I'm then better able to accept the table as it lays, take my best shot, and sit down. I don't have to like it, I just have to accept it.

I've lost lots of matches because I've got upset at myself, my opponent, the equipment, the juke box, the lighting, and on and on. I've tried reading books about the subject, talking to others about it, even trying hypnosis. But in my particular case, the only thing that helps me is believing that I have no control over what happens in a match. The minute I start trying to arrange the way the other guy plays, the way the balls roll, whether the score looks good, etc.-- I'm done. I don't want to get too "far-out", but I have a spiritual hunch that the games have already been decided before we play them; so we're just going through the paces. When I'm in a good frame of mind, I feel as though I'm simply an interested observer in what's occurring.

I used to love watching Varner. He'd take a terrifically bad roll without any outward reaction. He'd just keep chewing that gum, and sit down. Next turn he'd go to the table ready to shoot as though nothing had happened. A guy might be able to beat up on him, but he'd never beat up on himself...

Doc
 

Robber

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lfigueroa said:
I hated it. I'd lose to everybody: $200 sets lost to guys like Bid Ed, Butch, Iranian Billy, Robbie, and Kramer; $50 a game to Big Jake. $75 sets to Darmen, $100 sets to Mustache John, Terry, Jeremy, and Kip. $25 sets to Bill and Ralph.
Lou Figueroa


So when did you decide to change your ways and play for NO money or only for a couple of bucks? Seems like since you got better, you should be playing for big bucks. However, in another forum, this quote came from you:

"You are right about my betting. I don't play ANYONE for more than a dollar or two and I've acknowledged here many times that everyone knows that under pressure, I fold like a cheap lawn chair. In fact, I think I just posted here very recently, in another thread, that I'm not, and have never claimed to be a "real" player.

So what is it...you are a gambler or you aren't? You are a player or you aren't? Just want to know who to take advice from to help my game.
 

lfigueroa

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I’m not into internet woofing and to get rid of the idiots, most of whom won’t ever play anyway, I often times say things, like the “folding lawn chair” remark, with tongue-in-cheek. If you want to play me, my standing offer is to stop by and see if we can work something out. And in this fashion, I have played many out-of-town players, some of whom have emailed me, or posted on RSB when they’ll be in town, so I can meet them to play.

But since you asked, here’s the straight skinny: I am not a big gambler. I’ve never been on the road. I don’t hustle people. Pool is what I do for recreation.

I do enjoy playing in tournaments and for several years played in 1pocket tournaments in Vegas, Chicago, the DCC, the US Open, and here in St. Louis. (I’m currently trying to see if I can make it to Mark Griffin’s US Open 1pocket event in Vegas in October.) I occasionally get lucky and in events like these beat guys like Larry Nevel, Piggy Banks, Ike Runnels, as well as lesser players. I’ve gotten run over by guys like Cliff Joyner and Buddy Hall, but did manage to take two games off Efren Reyes in a race to four at the US Open 1Pocket event a few years back. If you’re interested, I can post a link to a published story about that.

And, I also enjoy a friendly bet and for years had a standing game for between $25 and $200 with almost anyone that walked in the door of the pool hall I frequented -- anyone in St. Louis that has been around pool for the last 10 years or so can verify that.

There’s not much action at the pool hall I now play at and I don’t go out at night or play pool on the weekends, preferring to spend that time with my lovely wife of 20 years. But that doesn’t mean I still don’t like to play for $10 or $20 a game, or play a set or two for a $100. I know that’s small potatoes, but like I said: I play pool for fun. That “dollar or two” thing you’re referring to was just another tongue-in-cheek remark, that anyone from St. Louis can figure out, if they aren’t just being ignorant.

So if someone wants to play me, everyone in St. Louis knows I’m not hard to find: my number is in the phone book, I post my email address on RSB or can be PM’d here, I play at Chesterfield Billiards -- a big long 25 minute ride from downtown and the Arch, that I’m there for an hour or two most weekdays around noon, and that I enjoy playing for modest stakes.

So bottom-line, take advice from whom you want and from whomever makes sense.

Lou Figueroa



Robber said:
So when did you decide to change your ways and play for NO money or only for a couple of bucks? Seems like since you got better, you should be playing for big bucks. However, in another forum, this quote came from you:

"You are right about my betting. I don't play ANYONE for more than a dollar or two and I've acknowledged here many times that everyone knows that under pressure, I fold like a cheap lawn chair. In fact, I think I just posted here very recently, in another thread, that I'm not, and have never claimed to be a "real" player.

So what is it...you are a gambler or you aren't? You are a player or you aren't? Just want to know who to take advice from to help my game.
 
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Mike

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If I figured out that I'm not out-classed I go to the bathroom wash my face in cold water and give myself a good talking to. By that I mean: what have I been doing wrong, is he playing over his head, have I been taking too many chances, etc. This has worked for me on many occasions and I've been able to gather myself and get back to where I should have been. On an equal basis it doesn't mean victory but if I've played up to my ability I can live with it.
 

Which pocket is mine?

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Never learn nothing from Winning

Never learn nothing from Winning

Three nights ago I had my butt kick by a nine ball player and he was a complete ass about it. Saying that one pocket player cant play nine ball. I came home and practice position play for a couple hours. I havent played much nine ball in the last ten years since I fell in love with one pocket. Last night we played 9 ball again he won 4 games out of the 25 we played I was nice the whole session I figure he had did me a favor by fireing me up. As luck would have it today I played 5 games of golf on the 6 by 12 snooker table I won all five games I was shooting well and got some good rolls to boot and the best part was the nine ball player was in the golf games. As I was leaveing I glance back he was still watching me as I walk out the door.I dont consider myself a great player but I a good player because of One Pocket. My friend who taught me the game beat me for a long time told be he was doing me a favor by beating so bad cause he said you cant learn nothing from winning. So if you lose try look at it as chance to learn something.
 

Which pocket is mine?

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Never learn nothing from Winning

Never learn nothing from Winning

Three nights ago I had my butt kick by a nine ball player and he was a complete ass about it. Saying that one pocket player cant play nine ball. I came home and practice position play for a couple hours. I havent played much nine ball in the last ten years since I fell in love with one pocket. Last night we played 9 ball again he won 4 games out of the 25 we played I was nice the whole session I figure he had did me a favor by fireing me up. As luck would have it today I played 5 games of golf on the 6 by 12 snooker table I won all five games I was shooting well and got some good rolls to boot and the best part was the nine ball player was in the golf games. As I was leaveing I glance back he was still watching me as I walk out the door.I dont consider myself a great player but I a good player because of One Pocket. My friend who taught me the game beat me for a long time told be he was doing me a favor by beating so bad cause he said you cant learn nothing from winning. So if you lose try look at it as chance to learn something.
 

gulfportdoc

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Good point

Good point

Mike said:
...but if I've played up to my ability I can live with it.
Mike, I think you've hit on a good point. Oftentimes when I mentally guage my play during a particular match (usually when I'm losing), I have the tendency to compare how I'm presently playing to the absolute best I've ever played. In other words sometimes I think I'm playing below my capacity, when in actuality I'm playing about the way I usually do. We all remember times that we ran out to win a tough match, or beat a better player 4-0, or something like that, but those episodes of dynamite playing are no more common than the times when we can't seem to run 3 balls. :cool:

Doc
 

Pelican

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Magnolia Springs, AL
Change of attitude

Change of attitude

A few years back I would beat myself up for losing but not anymore. My ability has diminished quite a bit but my love of play is as high as it ever was. Win or lose I make it a point to enjoy "the game". Sure takes a lot of pressure off ya :D

Later, Pel
 

NH Steve

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A couple of years ago I suddenly realized that I had become a lot more relaxed about my game. I don't know what brought the change on, it might have just been mellowing with age :) Of course, I'm also just a serious recreational player, so it is not my livelihood. Like Lou mentioned, I keep the stakes in a range that I am comfortable with, kind of like a recreational expense budget. (In case you are wondering, my range sounds very much like his.) But hey, what other hobbies out there actually can occasionally earn money?!

If you are in the game recreationally -- I don't care how seriously -- why not enjoy the game, that's why you play, right? For some reason, that concept kicked in for me a couple years ago, and I rarely come home from a game that depressed lately -- I hope it lasts!

One of the great things about One Pocket is that it is such a rich and challenging game, even in losing, there is always some nice shot or move or exchange of shots that you can look back on and savor -- and that's what I often find myself rehashing on the ride home.

There is a golf author who has a bunch of books out the last few years that talk about taking a similar approach to golf, if you don't mind taking a look at a 'head book'. I can't think of his name, but at least one of the titles is Golf is not a Game of Perfect.
 

lfigueroa

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Enjoying the game -- what a concept :)

I believe that sometimes there is far too much emphasis on the money part of the game. Don’t get me wrong, if that’s what you do, fine. If you don’t like playing for money at all, that’s fine too. And if your whole thing is matching up for big bucks, that’s fine. (Just remember that there is always someone out there willing to bet more and call *you* a nit.) IOW, different people approach the game differently. But some guys out there would have you believe that if you’re not emptying out your pockets when you hit the pool room, or at least betting at their level, there’s something wrong with you.

But that’s just baloney. From what I’ve seen, despite all the posturing and woofing that sometimes goes on between pool players, the reality is that the vast majority of players don’t bet. If you go to any pool hall, there’s usually only a small sub group of proficient players that are willing to gamble (and most of them want the nuts). The majority that do like to gamble, gamble small: $25-$100 sets of 9ball, $25- $200 sets of 1pocket -- that’s the norm.

Sure, the gambling stories are great entertainment. And who doesn’t like to sweat a high stakes match. But for most of us, pool is recreation, something fun and challenging. And for a lucky few, it’s a delicious pleasure to be experienced, savored and enjoyed.

Lou Figueroa



NH Steve said:
A couple of years ago I suddenly realized that I had become a lot more relaxed about my game. I don't know what brought the change on, it might have just been mellowing with age :) Of course, I'm also just a serious recreational player, so it is not my livelihood. Like Lou mentioned, I keep the stakes in a range that I am comfortable with, kind of like a recreational expense budget. (In case you are wondering, my range sounds very much like his.) But hey, what other hobbies out there actually can occasionally earn money?!

If you are in the game recreationally -- I don't care how seriously -- why not enjoy the game, that's why you play, right? For some reason, that concept kicked in for me a couple years ago, and I rarely come home from a game that depressed lately -- I hope it lasts!

One of the great things about One Pocket is that it is such a rich and challenging game, even in losing, there is always some nice shot or move or exchange of shots that you can look back on and savor -- and that's what I often find myself rehashing on the ride home.

There is a golf author who has a bunch of books out the last few years that talk about taking a similar approach to golf, if you don't mind taking a look at a 'head book'. I can't think of his name, but at least one of the titles is Golf is not a Game of Perfect.
 

jlcomp45

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Cape Girardeau MO
needed to read this

needed to read this

I so needed to read this - hope others find it as helpful as I did. going to try to start putting some of this to use.
 

Scrzbill

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You did something I never do, book two losers in one days play. If I have been torched by someone, be it the worst or best player, that’s my day. I don’t chase bad money the same day. Once the instant forgetter sears in, I can go back the next day and lose some more.
 

Billy Jackets

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If I figured out that I'm not out-classed I go to the bathroom wash my face in cold water and give myself a good talking to. By that I mean: what have I been doing wrong, is he playing over his head, have I been taking too many chances, etc. This has worked for me on many occasions and I've been able to gather myself and get back to where I should have been. On an equal basis it doesn't mean victory but if I've played up to my ability I can live with it.

I have done this ever since I watched the Hustler, lol.
Attitude makes a huge difference.
I was watching Preacher Ronn and a guy from out of town play all day out in Az.
It was real late at night and they had been playing dead even for a few hours.
I suggested he go put some water on his face and neck to Ronn , rinse his mouth and freshen up a bit.
He was leery of it , but did, and came back and won every game.
The other guy went and smoked cigarettes outside on the hot concrete for his break.
 
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