Rules ruling

onepocket926

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If it is agreed that the two object balls in question here are indeed touching, why would anyone argue that the second ball did not move? What part of "touching" is not understood?:frus

......if the definition of the word "contact".....denotes movement...(many a pool room brawl.... were fought over that definition....before it was standardized)....and there were two object balls involved....then the only conclusion You can draw...is....."Foul"....

....I believe this rule was....come up with...in order to avoid conflicts as to where....both object balls were at rest....before the "unintentional" movement of the first object ball....

a hint: for the "newbies".....if You do unintentionally move an object ball..... immediately place Your finger (avoiding contact with another object ball)...on the table as close as possible......to the center of where the ball that had been moved.......was prior to it's being moved...

.....thus aiding Your worthy opponent in his/her decision of leaving it....where it lays or replacing it to the original position....

.....it also helps avoid conflicts if Your opponent has a sudden "brain fart"...and tries to place the ball in a position that might inadvertently enhance his/her...table dominance....(ie: the original position....being frozen to the back rail...and replaced to....within the jaws of his/her pocket)

but,...that being said.....two opponents...in a "match-up".....can and do......deviate from quite a few of the......."understoods"........it is always a good idea to stipulate any changes...to standard or local rules....before You start to play.....
 

androd

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It's all nit picking. Anybody ever says that's a foul, I say ok I'll put one up. When they get tiresome with it I'll quit.
Rod.
 

onepocket926

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It's all nit picking. Anybody ever says that's a foul, I say ok I'll put one up. When they get tiresome with it I'll quit.
Rod.

...well said....I completely disregarded "option 3" :frus......I would suggest for the "new to the game"......don't take option 3....in the middle of a race...while the money is still on the light.....that brings up a whole different set of disputes....:D
 

8andout

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The rule should be- any ball moved is a foul. Then there will be no dispute.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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I appreciate your recognizing that there is another legitimate viewpoint other than your earlier interpretation. I also think your "one touch warning" rule makes more sense than what we are playing with today.

To those that keep saying that the rules are whatever two gamblers agree to prior to the game, you are missing the point completely, and simply restating the obvious while being irrelavent to this discussion.

I have to believe that this rule has simply evolved over time and suffers from somewhat poorly drafted wording, but also players oversimplification for convenience sake. Also, perhaps a little failure to understand the English language.

As to your interpretation vs mine, let me say this. Yours makes completely irrelavent the reference to touching a second ball, while mine takes into account both ways to commit a foul, and recognizes the use of the word "OR" as I believe was the original intent.

I would love to hear from you or anyone a reasoned argument for the existence of the phrase ("by either touching another ball, or" ) if it doesn't mean that this is one of two ways to commit a foul under this rule.
Rules are good to have.The whole world needs them. That.s what separates us from the animals. Without rules there would be a free for all. And even on this site what would happen to the site? Rules keep us in line. They tell us what we can and cannot do. And what makes rules strong and power full. If the rules are not in forced. The rules become worthless,and the words mean nothing. Without rules in the world we wold be just like the animals. The rules that are made are very important. We do not need rules that cause conflict.
 

onepocket926

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The rule should be- any ball moved is a foul. Then there will be no dispute.

....although on the surface.....Your rule would be the preferred....

...have You considered the people You'd be putting out of work....

....The Rules Committee, Referees, Pool Lawyers, Rail Bird Involvement (with no investment in the game) and (just plain) Shit Starters...

....:sorry....but, to be politically correct You have to respect their....participation in the outcome of the match....:D
 

8andout

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Has anyone been following the world 9-ball event in Qatar? I assure you no balls have been moved by mistake. By the way, the best player in America just lost to someone i never heard of.
 

onepocket926

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Has anyone been following the world 9-ball event in Qatar? I assure you no balls have been moved by mistake. By the way, the best player in America just lost to someone i never heard of.

....I believe I read about that tournament....seems there are 5 former Terrorists entered......

....and there was some questionable ball movement.......

.....after the penalties were invoked...........it evolved into...a one handed event.....:lol....
 

Fast Lenny

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If a ball touches another ball I am sure it has moved even if the eye cannot see how much, either way there was contact with a second ball.
 

gulfportdoc

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I am aware that you are a long standing and respected member on this site, and that your opinions seem to carry a lot of weight here, DOC. As such, and as a TD, I am puzzled that you would misquote 1P.org rules as well as WPA rules.

Your first statement above seems to be wrong. 1P.org rules say that WPA rules will apply, then go on to misquote those rules. WPA rules, as I read them in section 20 entitled Cueball fouls only ,in the Regulations clearly states what I and others have stated earlier. That the touching of a second ball is a foul without regard to any pathway traveled.

Please check this out and tell us what you read in section 20 of the Regulations?

I haven't misquoted anything. It is you who are being contentious on this subject, right from your very first post.

The 1p.o rules stand as a complete set, with the provision that anything not covered in those rules will defer to the WPA rules. Here is how that is written, right at the top of the rules page:

"Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA)." (emphasis added) That does not mean that WPA rules supersede the 1p.o rules. It means that the WPA rules can be used as a secondary source when a situation comes up that is not covered in the 1p.o rules.

The WPA rules state in their section 6.6 the following, which covers touched balls:

"6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."


My purpose in listing 3-4 various rule sets by major entities was to show the differences in addressing this issue.

You're personally entitled to play with any rules you like, unless you're playing in an event which uses one of these rule sets.

Doc
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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I haven't misquoted anything. It is you who are being contentious on this subject, right from your very first post.

The 1p.o rules stand as a complete set, with the provision that anything not covered in those rules will defer to the WPA rules. Here is how that is written, right at the top of the rules page:

"Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA)." (emphasis added) That does not mean that WPA rules supersede the 1p.o rules. It means that the WPA rules can be used as a secondary source when a situation comes up that is not covered in the 1p.o rules.

The WPA rules state in their section 6.6 the following, which covers touched balls:

"6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."


My purpose in listing 3-4 various rule sets by major entities was to show the differences in addressing this issue.

You're personally entitled to play with any rules you like, unless you're playing in an event which uses one of these rule sets.

Doc
I played by hustlers rules.
 

Tom Wirth

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I played by hustlers rules.

Artie, My pool game grew up beginning in the sixties and we played by very loose rules. One foot on the floor? Na....I saw some of the very best players in the world playing in cash games sitting all over the table. Shooting straight through a ball not frozen to the cue ball? Sure, as long as it was one stroke, why not? It was the same for both players so nobody argued that one as long as the balls were somewhat close together. Accidentally move a couple balls with your cue or hand? No problem, as long as it didn't interfere with the shot. Just put 'em back. Nobody argued about such things. It was the action that mattered.

Times change I guess, but I liked the old days. It was a lot less controversial.

Tom
 

onepocket926

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Anderson, CA
Artie, My pool game grew up beginning in the sixties and we played by very loose rules. One foot on the floor? Na....I saw some of the very best players in the world playing in cash games sitting all over the table. Shooting straight through a ball not frozen to the cue ball? Sure, as long as it was one stroke, why not? It was the same for both players so nobody argued that one as long as the balls were somewhat close together. Accidentally move a couple balls with your cue or hand? No problem, as long as it didn't interfere with the shot. Just put 'em back. Nobody argued about such things. It was the action that mattered.

Times change I guess, but I liked the old days. It was a lot less controversial.

Tom

...the spirit of the Law lives...and the letter of the Law kills.....it was true 5,000 years ago...and still true today......

.....if a Lawyer could get Bill Clinton off....then He could probably give a valid argument in any case....

.....in the immortal words of......"Bagger Vance".....it's only a game...it can't be won....it can only be played......
 

darmoose

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I haven't misquoted anything. It is you who are being contentious on this subject, right from your very first post.

The 1p.o rules stand as a complete set, with the provision that anything not covered in those rules will defer to the WPA rules. Here is how that is written, right at the top of the rules page:

"Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA)." (emphasis added) That does not mean that WPA rules supersede the 1p.o rules. It means that the WPA rules can be used as a secondary source when a situation comes up that is not covered in the 1p.o rules.

The WPA rules state in their section 6.6 the following, which covers touched balls:

"6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."


My purpose in listing 3-4 various rule sets by major entities was to show the differences in addressing this issue.

You're personally entitled to play with any rules you like, unless you're playing in an event which uses one of these rule sets.

Doc


I think it would be better if you (we, to be polite) refrained from name calling in order to focus on where you are missing some finer points of this rule.

I was not being contentious in my first post, I was quoting lll who was reciting his version of the DCC rule that said that "touching or disturbing" a second ball was a foul. And then he went on to explain that if the second ball did not move it wasn't a foul, totally ignoring the touching part. I was drawing his attention to the word "touching"

Now, to 1P.org rules, I don't disagree with you that WPA rules are secondary except where clearly and specifically called on to be primary, or to cover situations not addressed in the 1P.org rules.

Only rule 6.1 of the 1P.org rules, none (not one) of the other 1P.org rules starts with the statement "one pocket is played by the WPA rule in section 20 of the regulations entitled cueball fouls only". This is obviously and clearly a calling out for the WPA rule to become the primary on the subject of cueball only fouls, a provision which you are apparently totally ignoring.

I will give you that it is potentially confusing that rule 6.1 of the 1P.org goes on to explain what should happen when a single ball is disturbed. It is to be replaced with no foul having been committed regardless of the path traveled by any OB or the Cueball. This would mean that even if an OB or the Cueball traveled through the area where the ball was moved, still no foul. One could shoot a straightback bank shot, while accidently moving an OB that was in the path, and make the bank and have it count. Is this your intent?

The verbage in 6.1 of the 1P.org also fails to address a second ball being moved at all, and so by omission calls the WPA rule into primary position with regard to a second ball being touched or disturbed.

Finally, your reference to WPA rule 6.6 is a rule intended to address accidental or intentional touching or moving of an OB or the CB with objects other than the tip of your cue stick, (i.e. rakes, chalk, clothing, etc. ) and has nothing to do with "cueball only fouls" which are addressed in WPA Regulations, number 20. I don't understand your purpose in referencing WPA rule 6.6, but if it was to somehow apply it to this discussion, it certainly makes it a foul to touch any ball inadvertently, and as I said it is not intended to be the rule that covers "cueball fouls only".

It is bad enough, as you are implying, and I agree, the numerous ways this rule is addressed by the various rulemaking organizations. It is further confounding for one to misinterpret or omit to try to make a rule say what one might like it to say, rather than what it does actually say.
 
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Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie, My pool game grew up beginning in the sixties and we played by very loose rules. One foot on the floor? Na....I saw some of the very best players in the world playing in cash games sitting all over the table. Shooting straight through a ball not frozen to the cue ball? Sure, as long as it was one stroke, why not? It was the same for both players so nobody argued that one as long as the balls were somewhat close together. Accidentally move a couple balls with your cue or hand? No problem, as long as it didn't interfere with the shot. Just put 'em back. Nobody argued about such things. It was the action that mattered.

Times change I guess, but I liked the old days. It was a lot less controversial.

Tom
The lost a lot when the changed from billiard rooms to billiard parlors. From smoke filed rooms and sweaters and cursing and action.A atmosphere That had suspense and mystery. Is all gone and will be forgotten. Because those people and places and atmosphere will be gone and lost. Billiard parlors replaced the old with glitter and shine.Skirts and Perfume. A complete different atmosphere. Tournaments instead of gambling and action. Sherrdan and Wilson were MInnesota fats played Knock poker and Corn bread Red played pool. It was a good action place one of those old time pool room in Chicago_On the first floor was a bowling alley.
 

gulfportdoc

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... It is bad enough, as you are implying, and I agree, the numerous ways this rule is addressed by the various rulemaking organizations. It is further confounding for one to misinterpret or omit to try to make a rule say what one might like it to say, rather than what it does actually say.
Perhaps you should take up your questions with the various rules committees. I suspect that you're the kind of guy who gets a thrill out of arguing. There are a couple of other guys who participate in these forums who also enjoy arguing. Find one of those guys and have at it.

Doc
 

darmoose

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Perhaps you should take up your questions with the various rules committees. I suspect that you're the kind of guy who gets a thrill out of arguing. There are a couple of other guys who participate in these forums who also enjoy arguing. Find one of those guys and have at it.

Doc

...And I suspect that you are the kind of guy that is used to having his pronouncements accepted without question, being eminently qualified as a TD and all.

I was having a very civil and informative discussion with NH Steve back in post #15, when I invited anyone to provide a reasoned argument in support of Steve's interpretation, or conversely against mine. You jumped in, in your post #16 with your proclamation as to how things in fact are. I guess you didn't read the reasoned argument part?

Subsequently, I have just tried to point out the several problems with your position, to which you appear to have taken some kind of offense.

Fact is the verbal description in rule 6.1 of the 1P. rules makes no sense. It totally ignores "path of ball" and completely omits movement of a second ball, and therefore it cannot provide a basis for what should be done when these things happen.

You have also referenced WPA 6.6 at least twice which is not the appropriate WPA rule for cueball only fouls. That rule is rule 20 in the Regulations section.

As a suggestion, someone in authority in 1P.org should correct the verbage in rule 6.1 so there would not be so much confusion.

Meanwhile, you may take your ball and go home; I have no doubt you have come as close to admission of error as you are going to come. Hopefully, you will be a better TD, and the rest of us will be less confused as a result of these discussions.
 

Cary

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Once again, the WPA rule applies:

"20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent."
 

darmoose

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Once again, the WPA rule applies:

"20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent."

Absolutely correct, Cary. Good post, you get it.

....and as we can all see by reading the rest of the rule you didn't highlight, there are two ways described in the rule itself that the outcome of the shot is deemed to have been changed: 1.)by either touching another ball, or 2.) having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball.

Thanks:D
 
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